Leni Robredo vs Grace Poe
Grace Poe announces as a candidate for President [Photo credit: Rappler]
This article is not a discussion of politics, but of morality.
Leni Robredo set the stage when she said Senator Poe’s citizenship issue is a “moral issue”. Here’s The Inquirer’s story on the matter: “Leni Robredo: Case vs Grace Poe moral issue“.
The story is better than a lot of Inquirer articles because it presents both sides of the issue. Indeed, it has this quote from Senator Poe’s spokesperson, Rex Gatchalian:
“Never in her entire life did Poe turn her back on our country. She has always considered the Philippines her home, her domicile and her country.”
Well, I’m of American citizenship, and I have a real problem with that, because it means that Senator Poe DID turn her back on the United States. And thus, we have the moral issue, clearly presented to us by the Poe camp.
Here’s what Senator Poe pledged when taking up her Oath of Allegiance to America:
“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”
The US Immigration Service is kind enough to say in plain language what this means:
The principles embodied in the Oath are codified in Section 337(a) in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), which provides that all applicants shall take an oath that incorporates the substance of the following:
1. Support the Constitution;
2. Renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen;
3. Support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
4. Bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and
A. Bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; or
B. Perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; or
C. Perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law.
So the moral issues is, did Grace Poe lie when renouncing her citizenship to the Philippines? Or is her spokesman lying when he says she has always considered the Philippines her home?
By saying “home”, we are not talking about where the house was, and is. We are talking about where Senator Poe’s heart and soul, her allegiance was, and is.
I know how much people from other lands find their US citizenship precious. They mean what they say when they take that oath. They fight and die to get into the country. They cite the oath and cry with happiness that they “made it”.
What did Grace Poe mean?
“It is just something I have to say to get in here”?
So what does she mean when she says anything at all? Is she committed to it, or is she blowing smoke because it is to her advantage. That is the moral issue. And it is huge.
Seen through that light, all her campaign promises fall aside as so much game-playing. Perhaps she is posturing herself as a “doer” because her record of actual achievement is so very, very thin. Perhaps she is just blowing smoke.
Well, this is no joke, folks.
As an American veteran of the Viet Nam War, who did his nation’s bidding in a highly unpopular war, I understand the life-giving sacrifice that one makes when one takes one’s citizenship honorably and deeply. Millions of Americans serve in the military and hundreds of millions of Americans give heartfelt love to all in uniform, for the sacrifice and commitment they demonstrate. Many, many former Philippine citizens serve honorably and bravely for the United States. I have not checked, but I would bet that there are Filipino names on the Viet Nam Memorial wall, etched for all to see . . . that these Filipinos, who undoubtedly loved their homeland as you do, meant their oath of allegiance to America.
That oath is a statement of willingness to sacrifice. To honor, love, and even die for one’s chosen nation.
So Grace Poe faked it?
Indeed, it is a moral issue.
The Society of Honor by Joe America 
All these important life-changing documents taken lightly?
When can we trust her is the big question. And the big question will remain — whenever she speaks and signs documents. (Of course, when she speaks in her sleep, that we can lay aside.)
“Indeed, it is a moral issue”. And “Grace Poe faked it.” (I have taken out the question mark in the last sentence quote.)
*******
Forgot the exclamation point(s)?
Grace Poe faked it!!!
*****
Yes, I forgot to replace the ? with the !!!
And please, forgive, dear readers, this addition —
The very apparent taking of up of the US citizenship, renouncing the Philippine citizenship; and taking up the Philippine citizenship again and renouncing the US citizenship ALL FOR CONVENIENCE of the moment is a clear sign of LACK OF INTEGRITY. For a laborer working the streets by hammering the stones, understandable. BUT NOT FOR ONE ASPIRING TO BE A PRESIDENT.
We must have an honest media media man have this up for discussion to be heard by the men in the streets. Do we have someone still from ABS CBN? People from GMA News can help spread this one single important issue more than the foundling issue which can be so technical and ordinary people can’t easily understand. Should be on the level for masa and the so called intelligent ones…
When I flew in from Vietnam, there were Filipinos ahead of me at JFK immigration. All of them were carrying two passports: One, obviously, American and the other obviously not an american passport.
They presented both passports. They cannot seem to know which ones to present.
I ASK THE PHILIPPINE GOVERNMENT, Dual Citizenship should be deleted from any law cookbooks. Because this allow and promulgate traitorship.
But Like NHHerrera said, IT IS FOR CONVENIENCE. Convenient for PhilippineGovernment and Convenient for its residents to rake in money the Philippine government cannot bring in.
Grace, please! Please! Give it up! We got enough crooks already. In the name of God, please give it up Grace! Give it up!
@MRP
I travel with two passports. Yes it is for convenience but I will never be a traitor to the country of my origin. I know the consequence of my choice, I can’t hold any public office in any of the two. I can advocate but can’t be of service. Sir, please, many Filipinos have chosen this path not solely for convenience but for the sake of love of family which is deeply rooted in all hearts of Filipinos.
It begs the question: what if the impossible happens? What if the US and the Philippines go at war against each other? Who will Grace Poe fight for?
If war is like international Basketball where Yao Ming plays for China,Ginobili for Argentina,etc etc
if Gpl is president,there must be no question that she must side with the Philippines and ask help from China and the USSR.
if she is just citizen grace,who cares what she thinks.
Yes. Have said before I don’t care if Grace Poe was born and raised in a test tube or smuggled here by aliens from one of Saturn’s outer moons. I don’t care if her DNA test revealed she was the daughter of Marcos or Hitler or the pope. These are not conditions she could have chosen for herself.
But the back-and-forth switching of national allegiances and renouncing of oaths, with apparently no hesitation, just because she was made to believe that she can swan her way into Malacanang; no way can this person lead–truly lead–a nation. (She’s even offered up her husband’s U.S. citizenship IF SHE WINS, in a sort of buy-one-take-one deal.)
Yes, she made into the Senate in the last election; that was indeed OUR mistake, and we should not repeat it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Her followers, including some intellectuals who fell for her stardust–and fell even harder for the enticing possibility of serving as advisers to her administration–are painting anti-Poe advocates as political spin doctors making use of technicalities and legal loopholes to further their own candidate and deny our fair martyr her democratic rights.
Well, we ordinary voters have OUR rights–and those include choosing our presidents based not only on their abilities and executive experience, but also on their close associates, character traits and past choices.
Former Sen Saguisag’s opinion (if not yet common knowledge and to add light not heat to the discussion):
THE WOMAN WITHOUT A COUNTRY?
A petition to disqualify Grace Poe has been lodged by my pal, Dean Amado Valdez, with whom I am normally in agreement – and am I surprised when we differ. He contends that the Senator is not qualified in the 2016 Presidential Elections on the following grounds:
1. ASSUMING THAT GRACE POE WAS A NATURAL-BORN CITIZEN, SHE LOST HER STATUS AS NATURAL-BORN WHEN SHE RENOUNCED HER FILIPINO CITIZENSHIP IN 2001 TO BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. SHE NEVER REGAINED HER NATURAL BORN STATUS. AT BEST, SHE IS A REPATRIATED FILIPINO CITIZEN UNDER RA 9225.
It seems to me being a natural-born Filipino is a one-time permanent thing. As Chief Justice Roberto Concepcion taught us in senior law, a natural-born Filipino “is one born a Filipino.” One is born only once. That concept, to me, is unchanging. One is a natural-born Pinoy, Martian or Manchurian Candidate.
Losing one’s natural-born status seems an impossibility, like losing my birthplace of Mauban, Quezon, my sainted mother, my birth date, etc. Immutable. We cannot square the circle.
2. SHE HAS NOT COMPLETED HER TEN-YEAR RESIDENCY RECKONED, AT THE EARLIEST, FROM JULY, 2006 WHEN SHE RE-ACQUIRED HER FILIPINO CITIZENSHIP, AND AT THE LATEST ON 20 OCTOBER 2010 WHEN SHE RENOUNCED HER AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP.
Residence was required to make sure one was aware of what was going on in the community and the country. For a caring Pinoy, that is now the easiest thing to do, without being physically present. We are talking of only a few months and therefore the issue has de minimis significance, if at all. The intent of the law is to exclude a stranger and a newcomer, unacquainted with the conditions and needs of the community and not identified with the latter. That may well be but it represents the best thinking of a jurassic era.
When I was in Rizal High, I would walk two or three kilometers for lunch at home and to catch the one o’clock Sports Parade of Willie Hernandez, to find out how the New York Yankees had fared the day before. Today we can watch sports events world-wide, live. And edifying presidential debates.
I chat with my family at home and then I am told my daughter Lara, with a doctorate in philosophy – children’s studies, now teaching tenure-track in New York, is there, on screen, to chat with her siblings here, live. There is the I-Pod, computer, celfones, etc. that make it possible for concerned Pinoys abroad who care to follow daily what goes on here.
Art. 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights guarantees against statelessness. Art. 25 says to care for love children. In Makati Elementary, we read about Philip Nolan, The Man Without a Country. Was Grace ever The Woman Without a Country?
I may sound Emotionalized. I prefer Passionate, for all my life I have preferred to be on the side of the one being dumped on and kicked around. Do we kick around a Poe-Lot who comes to this world with two strikes against him/her? Underdogs, weeping alone, my kind of people, for whom I have worked. prayed and fought with that kind of passion that whips the blood.
I don’t want the unelected Commission on Elections and the unelected Supreme Court ruling on the tough issue. Not even the partly elected Senate Electoral Tribunal, whose widely-admired Chair, Justice Tony Carpio, inexplicably and uncharacteristically prejudged Grace’s case on Day One, without waiting for all the arguments to be in, leaving him no wiggle room. He should have waited until after all the evidence and arguments are in.
The choice of who will lead the country is the quintessential political question falling under its second kind.
The concept of “political question” is limited to two: 1) when the matter is exclusively left to a body to decide, like disorderly behavior of a member of Congress for something said say, in a privilege speech; it may be questioned there but not in any other place, such as the courts; or 2) when it is left to the people to decide in their sovereign capacity.
“But where the matter falls under the discretion of another department or especially the people themselves, the decision reached is in the category of a political question and consequently may not be the subject of judicial review.” I. Cruz and C. Cruz, Phil. Political Law 140 (2014).
I may be wrong but I should not have to be blamed for something drilled in me by Chief Justice Concepcion in San Beda and Prof. Albert Sacks in Harvard Law and adopted by Justice Isagani Cruz and his son, Carlo.
Let the sovereign people, the bosses, decide in a society that would be humane under our constitutional preamble.
Am I voting for Grace? Decency I always associate with FPJ and Susan. Osmosis should work and result in Designer Genes.
But, in fact, I have not made up my mind. It’s just that I don’t want any foundling being dumped on and kicked around. Art. 24 of the Civil Code says the system must be vigilant in protecting the handicapped, and ang putok sa buho, which Shakespeare lamented in King Lear, “Why bastard? wherefore base” – merits sympathy, understanding and compassion.
Campaign against her but let her be among the cards to be dealt our people in 2016.
Sonny, I’m with Saguisag in not wanting any foundling being dumped and kicked around.
But please see the 2nd paragraph of my comment where I pointed out that in Poe’s case, she was not at all kicked around after she was found dumped in a church. She was cared for, loved, educated in better schools, given the luxury that a millionaire movie producer/star can give, was sent to the US to further her studies, married and had a family there while waiting for her millions in inheritance from her adoptive parents, quite differnt from OFWs and other immigrants there who became US citizens. She chose to be a US citizen out of expedience, not out of financial need as she can stay there indefinitely having married a US citizen, kinda like Joe but in reverse…she only has to renew some documents like Joe does, annually, a process she found it hard to do.
The perception that she is being kicked around is not quite true. She was not stateless, she is a Filipino citizen by virtue of international law on foundlings and by the fact that she was adopted, given the citizenship of her adoptive parents. It was a well known fact that she is a foundling, she may have been teased about it as a kid by kids who do not know any better, but others simply loved her for what she is. She and her adoptive parents, however, even knowing that she is a foundling, had connived with the San Juan registry to make it apear that she is the biological daugher of FPJ and Susan. I need to research on the date of that birth certificate, a delayed registration. That was not honest, that’s false information meant to thwart the law.
All these discussion is just to satisfy the constitutional requirement – all government officials must be natural born citizens of the Philippines. It will be a dangeous precedent if she is ruled to be Natural Born Filipino Citizen (NBFC)..what if the foundling found before, or in the future are blue eyed, fair, and blond haired baby of Russian parents, or a chinky eyed, fair infant of Chinese (mainland Chinese – the GI, genuine intsik..parents, dumped here for some other purposes by their original countries?…(sorry for being a spy thriller enthusiast, but hey, that’s entirely possible) then the very purpose why our country had decided to follow the jus sanguini doctrine of citizenship is defeated. The final decision of determining if Poe si NBFC rests with the Supreme Court after either the respondent Poe and the plaiinftiff David elevate it there come Nov. 17, the date the SET decision is scheduled to be released.
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, based on the fundamental law of the land which set the qualification of those wanting to be government officials. It will not be prudent for the star struck, sympatheric masa voters to be allowed to decide on purely constitutional matters.
Disclosure: the above comment is MHO only…a layman’s passionate one, that is posted in the spirit of free sharing of ideas and opinion…anyone has a right to reply to the contrary…
Correction on the first sentence – “sonny, I’m with Saguisag” not “with you”
I’m at a loss, Mary Grace. Was NBFC question already vetted since ms Poe is a sitting PH senator? If scofflaws like her roam free then NBFC question is meaningless. I think.
sonny…that’s why I shared (so may blog articles ago) the opinion of a well known immigration lawyer (I forgot his name) who opined that Poe, after this NBFC issue has been discussed in the social networks and as a consequence, caught also the attention of the legal circle, is in danger of not only being disqualified as a presidential candidate but she is also in danger of losing her senate seat…that was long before Rizalito David filed the DQ case in the SET.
If she loses the DQ case in the SC, she obviously cannot run as president, and cannot even continue to serve the remaing 3 years of her term in the Senate (still up to 2019).
Mary Grace, then it seems like the Poe followers are holding information that’s set for a gambling game or a controlled anarchy. IMO…
Just like Obama’s NBAC.
yes, it seems that way, sonny.
or it could be that Escudero knows this all along, and he’s doing his damned best to win the VP position, even courting other Binay supporters the way he did in 2010, so in case Poe is disqualified, he will be the President. For now, they seem to be applying the delaying tactics so the printing of ballots will be done (with Poe’s name in there) and try with all their might to get her elected with the disqualification later looming in the horizon after the May election. Same intention for the rest of the VP candidate, I believe.
renounce poe as she renounced the philippines the land of her birth. sad
wow, fe…that’s great…tit for tat eh?
Seems that she did. On reflecting on the blog, I was also struck by the irony that, in effect, she divorced the United States. That, for Filipinos who are ardently Catholic and against divorce in marriage, ought to make the morality issue clear. And as a further thought, she also divorced LP, as a matter of expedience, because she found a more attractive lover.
He be slick man, he be a gangsta! 🙂
Even Parekoy, Joe’s nemesis who is a Bikolano like me, describes Chiz Escudero, our fellow Bikolano as “maitim ang puso” and someone nearly nobody trusts in politics, so he went out to use Grace Poe. Sociopathic might be the diagnosis that fits Chiz’s behavior.
Joe, do you really mean to criticize Senator Poe’s morality by comparing her giving up her US citizenship and tieup with the Liberal Party to a marriage divorce? Correct me if I am mistaken but it seems to me I recall you mentioning here you were once divorced also? ? I would really resent such an accusation not only because it might be hypocritical but like hundreds or thousands of those who visit your blog, I too was once divorced.
I’ve made notes in other comments, but allegiance to nation and vows to spouses are both contracts that people look at with head and heart, and the morality standard in the Philippines, which does not allow divorce, is more strict than it is in all the other countries that do accept the ending of a contract of the heart is the best choice in some circumstances. Josephivo has pointed out that American law permits dual citizenship, and a citizen can go beyond that to end the relationship of allegiance, as Grace Poe has done. That is the parallel to divorce. I’ve been divorced, and it is instructive because one does face the judgments of others which, in the US 50 years ago, were much stricter than today. It is a moral argument. How people feel about it. The laws trie to keep pace with how the great majority feel about things.
The moral issue for Grace Poe, as expressed by Leni Robredo, is whether or not she turned her back on the Philippines. My argument looks at it from the US perspective, that her attorney has argued that she has always considered the Philippines her home? Then why did she state that oath to the US? That’s the moral argument, to me. Not only did she turn her back on the US, she entered into the contract as something other than good faith. Now if you are a rationalist like jameboy or josephivo, a contract is a matter of the head, and what Grace Poe did is fine. The difficulty is, many (how many we don’t know) look at it from the standpoint of feelings, the defining emotion for emerging morality.
I would fall into line with jameboy and josephivo on the matter, because of my divorces, all rational undertakings, except that Grace Poe has not expressed any fondness for or allegiance to the US. She cannot profess that she was ever in love. Because that creates a conflict of interest, as the President of the Philippines. So that is the moral issue. Did she state her allegiance in good faith? Was she in love with the US? If not, she did not enter a contract in good faith. If so, is there a conflict of interest as President. Grace Poe herself has set it up as a contest of allegiances, one always there, one never there except for the paperwork. Because she has to prove her allegiance to the Philippines.
So that does create a huge moral delimma. Leni Robredo recognizes the delimma, but has not cast judgment. I’m taking the matter to judgment.
My quibble with your comment is your comparing Poe’s to the supposed questionable morality of people who have been divorced and turned their back on those who they once loved and may have committed to stay with. This is like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. Not that being black or being divorced should be looked down on as an indication of poor moral character any more than a person who decides to move and settle with his or family because that seems the best choice for them to find their happiness. You made the very same choices yourself Joe, and so did many here, including me, and it seems very inappropriate for you, in my humble opinion, to be making a moral accusation against someone who made essentially same choices you did. The irony is the moral argument is unclear, even for these so called ardent Catholic women where divorce is an option withheld from them by an ossified church heirarchy when every other Catholic country in the world including Italy the country where the Pope resides. There will be countless of those ardent Cathlic women trapped in loveless unhappy marriages whose husbands parade their mistresses in public who will sympathize with Poe, you, or me and countless others who might not agree in equating starting a new life in another country not necessarily as a treasonous but as a necessary act to achieve the happiness of their family.
As you stated, you intended to make this blog article not about politics but about Senator Poe’s moral character and given the biases of most regulars here, which is decidely and overwhelmingly politically and personally anti-Poe, it is clear to me at least in the comments section,that it is impossible to separate the two because that is the very nature of Philippine politics which focuses on badmouthing the opponent instead of focusing on the positive aspects of the candidate or his platform assuming he espouses one.
The distinctions I suppose are that: (1) this is the Philippines with a stricter moral code than the US, (2) she is running for President. My being divorced WOULD be a factor to many here if I were running for high public office (less so in the US, but it used to be considered material), and I’d have a really hard time running for priest. I was struck by Leni Robredo’s comment that it is a moral issue (which she is not judging), and flipped it to the view of an American to state the issue backward. Poe could have tempered my objection had she ever expressed affection for the US, or appreciation. As I read her explanations on changing citizenship, it all seems like . . . well . . . a convenience. And many of her decisions fit into that same pattern, opportunism, political gameplaying and self-advantage.
As I would like to see a Binay statement explaining the Parking Garage forthrightly, I’d welcome a blog from anyone who can explain Poe’s decisions and platform forthrightly. Like explaining why she would hold an investigative hearing in aid of legislation, leave the meeting, and say Abaya is the wrong guy to head DOTC. What does that have to do with legislation?
Or if she were president, how would have she have handled the INC protests? Or what she thinks would happen to the ITLOS case if she indeed did try to negotiate with China, and how she would get past their starting position, “Recognize our sovereignty and we can talk.” Or why she has not read NEDA plans, causing her to claim highway construction is being done for political purposes. Or giving example of other nations that run government via a war room.
I’d love a statement of platform and program that would convince me she is something other than a populist and opportunist, and is really ready to be president. If you’d care to write it, I’d welcome it.
You could make a really interesting blog article out of that issue, whether the Philippines, has a stricter moral code in the US. Sure the Catholic Church is an enormous conservative and restraining influence on its culture and whats considered acceptable religious and social behavior.
I’d have a hard time doing that because it puts me in the position that people think I am an arrogant foreigner who thinks he has a better way. It’s a blog better suited to a Filipino writer.
Its hard to consider a people more moral when the great mass of voters elect convicted and accused criminals into high public office. Its hard to consider a country moral when documented evidence shows the majority of its senators and congressmen have engaged in a massive and organized conspiracy to funnel 60-80% of public funds meant to improve the lives of their constituents are channeled into their own pockets. It does not happen in the USA because the piblic here would never stand up fot it!
Yes, but the morality is one of forgiveness and favoritism for those in power, reflecting the image and ways of the Catholic Church. The process by which the people hold themselves and their colleagues accountable, the field of ethics, is virtually non-existent. It is strong in the US. Like you said, the public would never stand for it. The forces for better ethical accountability are social media and a growing middle class.
Those 4.0M Filipinos in the US should be brought to Philippines and fight against China. Because they are citizens of the Philippines …. errrr …. America….. wetaminit … Philippines?
In times of peace they love to wave two passports …. in times of war … they only show American passport ….. because America protects even the IMMORALS.
It’s more of a moral issue than a legal one, Camarines Sur representative and vice presidential contender Leni Robredo said of the citizenship controversy hounding Sen. Grace Poe’s presidential run.
She also described questions about Poe’s citizenship as a “major issue,” and one that should not be compared to the situation of overseas Filipino workers (OFWs) and other migrants who have decided to settle in foreign lands.
“Filipinos working abroad are not running for President,” Robredo said bluntly during a round-table discussion with Inquirer reporters, editors and columnists on Thursday night.
For me, it’s a major issue that you’re running for President and yet at one point in your life, you renounced your Filipino citizenship,” Robredo, who is a lawyer, said.
The Camarines Sur representative however downplayed the issue of Poe being a foundling, another issue that several quarters had raised in a bid to disqualify the senator from public office.
Bigger issue
Not knowing her true parentage—a decisive factor in determining whether Poe was a natural-born Filipino citizen or not—should not take precedence over the senator’s decision to swear allegiance to the United States as a citizen, Robredo said.
“The issue of renunciation (of her Filipino citizenship) is a bigger issue for me because … at one point in (Poe’s) life, (she) turned (her) back on us,” she added.
That also makes the citizenship controversy “a moral issue more than a legal issue,” Robredo said. “Of course there’s a legal issue, but that has to be settled in court,” she added.
Her home and domicile
Reacting to Robredo’s statement, Poe’s spokesperson Rex Gatchalian said the Camarines Sur representative was entitled to her opinion, but that the senator’s camp does not subscribe to it.
“Never in her entire life did Poe turn her back on our country. She has always considered the Philippines her home, her domicile and her country,” Gatchalian said.
Her actions show this, he added, citing Poe’s decision to return to the Philippines to give birth to her children though, he said, it would have been very convenient for her to do so in the United States.
“She did this because she considers the Philippines as her country and wanted the most important event in her life, like childbearing, to take place here,” he said.
“Nobody can say that the Filipinos abroad ‘turned their backs on us,’” Gatchalian said, adding that millions of Filipinos are forced to leave the country and work abroad for economic reasons.
These Filipinos continually send remittances that power our economy, Poe’s spokesperson said.
‘Animus revertendi’
Robredo said it was important to determine the actual date of Poe’s renunciation of her American citizenship, noting that it wasn’t clear if it should be on the day of application, or on the date of registration in the records of the US State Department.
The widow of the late Interior Secretary Jesse Robredo and running mate of Liberal Party standard-bearer Mar Roxas said the principle of animus revertendi may be used against Poe in blocking her presidential bid.
A legal concept, animus revertendi refers to a candidate’s intent to return to his or her residence during a period of time.
Robredo said Poe’s case may be similar to former Mayor Rommel Arnado of Kauswagan, Lanao del Norte province, who was disqualified by the Supreme Court after he was found to have used his American passport even after he had renounced his US citizenship.
“You cannot invoke animus revertendi when you still use your US passport because you had a choice,” Robredo said.
Veterans’ allegiance
Gatchalian said Robredo’s statements might lead one to wonder if she was questioning as well the allegiance of Filipino war veterans who bled for the country but took on American citizenship because of better opportunities abroad.
“Is she saying (these) veterans who took on American citizenship also ‘turned their backs on us?’” he asked.
Gatchalian added: “What if, in the near future, an OFW or a war veteran who took on American citizenship comes home and runs for the presidency? Will (Robredo) also question their allegiance?”
Poe, the adopted daughter of the late popular movie actor Fernando Poe Jr., returned to the Philippines to help in her father’s presidential campaign in the May 2004 elections. The “action king” lost to then President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo amid allegations of massive fraud and died in December 2004.
The senator is facing four disqualification cases questioning her citizenship and her alleged failure to meet the 10-year residency requirement for those eyeing the presidency.
Poe countered that she had renounced her American citizenship and that her husband has also started the process of renouncing his. The standard-bearer of the Partido Galing at Puso also lambasted moves to derail her candidacy, describing them as the handiwork of those who wanted to “subvert the will of the people.”
News reports quoted Poe’s detractors as saying that the senator had entered and left the US several times using her US passport even after she had expatriated her American citizenship when she swore her oath of office as chair of the Movie and Television Review and Classification Board in 2010.
No judgment
It was also reported that Poe swore the US oath of renunciation before the US vice consul in Manila on July 12, 2011, and that her US certificate of loss of nationality was stamped approved on Feb. 3, 2012.
But Robredo said she was not making any judgment on Poe’s character and that she was not out to malign her.
“I don’t know her well enough. I’ve seen her a few times, but not well enough for me to judge her,” the Camarines Sur representative said of the senator. Leila B. Salaverria
Read more: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/739508/leni-robredo-case-vs-grace-poe-moral-issue#ixzz3rRKYUDxX
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GRACE POE should tell the Filipinos the process on how to renounce American Citizenship. I did not renounce my Filipino Citizenship. I just walk up to American Embassy. Applied to immigrate. Toak an oath. Voila! I became an American Citizen.
WHAT ABOUT MY FILIPINO CITIZENSHIP? I did not tell the Philippines Government that I RENOUNCED THEM. There is no form to fill out. To PHilippine Government I am still a Filipino citizen.
… BUT I’D RATHER NOT BUY PROPERTIES AND INVESTING IN SAN MIGUEL AND PLDT .. because in the PHilippines ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. If they hate me … if they found out who I REALLY AM … they will sequister and garnish my properties.
Just like SALN. It is there but NOBODY IS CHECKING. They only check SALN if found convenient against their emenies.
I used to work at the Philippine Embassy in Bonn. We received all the Filipino passports of those Filipinos who applied for German citizenship by naturalization. I made the dBase (DOS) database to register all of them as having relinquished their Filipino citizenship.
Which shows that Germans are more thorough than Americans, once again. All who naturalized were required to give their passports to the German authorities, who sent them back to the Philippine Embassy, because they are after all Philippine property.
The only reason my mother did not have to do that in my case is because children of mixed marriages are not naturalized citizens. According to some Philippine consular officials, I have not lost my Filipino citizenship because I never applied for another.
Some however say I have lost it, because I continued to use my German passport after age of majority and never reapplied for another Filipino passport after I reached 18.
Which shows that Filipinos laws are confused, Filipino officials are confused, and Filipinos.
FILIPINOS ARE CONFUSED PEOPALE. Mar Roxas will have a big headache. Even Mar is soooo confused about what “DAAN MATUWID” is.
Cong. Leni Robredo is hypocrite to say something about the moral issue on Grace Poe. She should remember that the LP presidential contender Mar Roxas waited until the nth hour awaiting that Grace Poe will accept his offer as his vice presidential tandem. Now after Grace Poe decided to run for president as an independent, the moral issue against her popped in to malign and discredit her citizenship and integrity for what? Even PNoy was salivating that Grace Poe accept his offer for her to be the vice presidential candidate of the LP but Grace Poe has a more lofty ideals and mission to run for president since according to her the straight path as what LP is badmouthing in their daily TV ads is not a monopoly of a perceived majority party in power?
Give me a break. A person can be a citizen of many countries. A country can pass all the laws they want penalizing dual citizenship, but all are meaningless. In short – no country even has the right to know what other countries a person may be a citizen of. (That is the generally and intelligently held legal position.) It is not necessary to renounce any citizenship. And there is no conflict in taking an oath of allegiance to multiple countries. In the case of a war, one must follow one’s conscience. “My country right or wrong” is bullshit. One always has a responsibility to determine which course of action has integrity, regardless of allegiance of alliance.
I’d say you view is in the minority, and possibly even in the extreme. Now it may be a theoretical ideal we can eventually all get to as the world shrinks and there are more EUs and ASEANs breaking down notions of country allegiance. But as long as trust is low and terrorism is high, countries will try to define who is friendly and who is not. Citizenship is an oath of loyalty that brings penalties if abridged. That’s the real world.
Grace Poe has a moral delimma like 3,416,840 US-based Filipinos counted as of March 2012*. These are documented Filipinos renounced their allegiance to Philippines. They trampled the flag and constitution of the Philippines. They surrendered volunatrily to former colonist, The Americans, because the Americans dangled jobs, mcirowaves, refrigerators, cars, ballpens, Spam, Corned beef, apartment and dignity of work their country of origin cannot offer.
The undocumented also are in the millions. The documenteds took an oath of allegiance. They wanted to speak like Americans. Dress like Americans. But NOT THINK LIKE AN AMERICAN.
They still vote in Philippines and American elections. Very Immoral. The number does not count 12,000,000 OFWs and TnTs in Europe and all over the world.
TnTs do not want to be called as such. They do not want to be called fence-jumpers, undocumented, illegals, boat-jumpers …. THEY WANT TO BE CALLED “Out-of-Status”. SUAVE. CLASSY. Meaning, they are documented by ICE, they have documents but their documents expired so the name “Out-of-Status” to distinguish themselves from fence-jumping pole-vaulting Hispanics.
The IMMORAL COMELEC tap their votes, too, propagating and sanctioning more immorality. COMELEC is now in all out campaign in every Philippine Embassy and Consular offices around the globe to sign them up for 2016 election. There will be 15,000,000 immoral votes flying in to be counted.
Here is the diff between Grace Poe and the rest of immoral Filipinos abroad. Grace Poe residency qualification IS NOT SANCTIONED BY THE CONSTITUTION. If Grace Poe knows how to read she should know better. She is gunning for Malacanang for chrissake! She should read-and-comprehend.
Grace should understand, like in America, we have two roads to immorality. It is immoral to run naked in 42nd street but not immoral to have their naked pictures sold in Times Square news stand. BECAUSE IMMORALITY IS DEFINED IN AMERICA BY LAW just like Presidential aspirant must have residency qualification as written in the CONSTITUTION OF THE PHILIPPINES.
Lookit, Grace, DO NOT PUSH IT. SAVE YOUR MONEY. GO BACK TO MY COUNTRY HERDING CHILDREN TO CLASSROOMS teaching legislated morality: Dos and Don’ts
* Pew Research Center Social & Demographic Trends: The Rise of Asian-Americans Full Report 2012
But Filipinos, in a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is the most immoral, YOU ARE NUMBER ONE ! Compared to RETURNEES that blew up dozens and took 100 hostages at Bataclan amphitheater.
These RETURNEES are from middle-east where Gods and Goddesses were manufactured.
No, I object. It is a tough decision to leave one country and cite oath to another. They did not trample the Philippine flag. They embraced the opportunities that the US was able to offer them, that the Philippines could not. They still love the Philippines, and show up at Pacquiao fights if they can afford it. They live in Filipino communities because then they can have a little Filipino flavor (food) and camaraderie with them, as they pay taxes or serve in the armed forces for the US, as they promised they would.
Furthermore, none is running for President of the Philippines, and they cannot run for President of the US. They can be mayors and admirals in the US, and are.
(OT: Joe, I’ve just submitted my article. Did you get it? )
I just checked my e-mail, and yes, it is there. A wonderfully researched and constructed piece certain to promote hearty discussion. I’ll put it into the next slot in the line-up, Sunday, November 22. If that is not convenient for you, let me know and we can work something out behind the scenes.
That’s perfect, right before the long Thanksgiving weekend. Thanks, Joe.
Grace Poe’s spokesperson:
“Is she saying (these) veterans who took on American citizenship also ‘turned their backs on us?’” he asked.
They are not running to be the President of the Republic. That is the point!
Yes, they are trying to shift the blame to all, or others. It only belongs to Grace Poe.
Indeed it is a moral issue! If she can fake her oath, she can fake her oooohs and aaahs with her husband. Poor husband, and she does not even use his surname!
My apologies Manong Joe, it just blurted out.
Hahaha, to be frank, Doc, my blog was a blurt. I read the Inquirer article and out came the blog. Took about a half hour, start to finish, fastest blog ever.
Blurting is honest.
Hey doc! You studied faking orgasms in med school?
she must be using Llamanzarez after she won the election,I was thinking of an example…didTessie Aquino Oreta dropped the Oreta when she ran and won as a senator?
The Llamanzarez method . . . . sounds like it belongs in the family planning manual.
That method of faking anything is now dubbed as the Llamanzares method, and if the doc agrees,it can be a family planning method. That will be GPL’s population growth campaign.
Ahahaha! Maybe Lance will help us on that! He is an authority based on extensive experience. He will know if it is fake or not.😂
Don’t encourage the man, it’s off topic and he has excellent resources.
“and he has excellent resources.”
LOL! bauwow missed it, hopefully gian took a screen pic of the non-canonical comments and posts it on fb or twitter.
I think you’re referring to the Lamaze method, a childbearing technique.
Ahahaha, oh yes, I remember that now. I was trained in how to help my wife and not get slugged in the eye.
A thought struck me as I was responding to a comment on my Facebook sharing of this article:
She won the senate race and is on top of the polls and, in her mind, she is a star. . . like her father was. That’s why she gets so angry when people challenge her. She can’t reconcile her own self-image with what people are saying, and blames them.
I do think the good Senator may be living a fiction.
Dual Citizenship. “The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not, without more, mean that he renounces the other”, Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717 (1952). In Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a naturalized U.S. citizen has the right to return to his native country and to resume his former citizenship, and also to remain a U.S. citizen even if he never returns to the United States.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship).
It seems that the US Supreme Court does not see this conflict with the oath.
Can one change mind? The problem is with Poe’s spokesperson who phrased her change of mind wrongly. Did she change mind lightly? Is it as changing religion, some do because the new church offers free drinks, other after years of suffering and moral incertitude.
For a good understanding I’m not in favor of GPL candidacy, too much “Poe” and “Escudero”, too little substance.
That’s most interesting. Laws are the codification of morality, so the court is saying my feelings about the matter are out of sync with morality and the law? It really is akin to the laws permitting divorce, or not permitting them. The passions behind the commitment. And how much trust you can give to someone who breaks a contract that most of us hold in the heart.
Well, I’ve been divorced, so I’m sensitive to the argument.
My issue with this is that I think Grace Poe is light on commitment and heavy on expedience, and would sell any soul for her own advantage. Her whole nation is a convenience. So if the argument does not hold water in the court of law, it for sure holds water in the court of observation and character evaluation.
Has the husband started the process in becoming a Filipino citizen,or he will wait for the next survey results?
And what does his commitment to the Philippines mean? Is it like a basketball player, that it only means I get to play for the Philippines, or only that I get to sleep with the President. Or is he willing to fight and die for the Philippines?
I think the Legislature should pass a special law that mandates he serve two years in the Philippine Navy before he takes up occupancy of the President’s residence. I’d like to know that he is here for the Philippines, not for convenience.
He should be assigned to Sierra Madre and stand guard against the Chinese for two years.
I read somewhere that Mr. Grace Poe will renounce his citizenship if his wife wins next year. I cringed when I heard this but I’m sure they have been advised against this move.
They got a lot of criticism for the “opportunism” that stand represented, and so quickly changed approach. Her husband is in process of renouncing US citizen ship now.
It is so frustrating that the ‘unthinking masses’ do not see thru it. They only see FPJ’s shining daughter coming down from heaven saving them from hunger and poverty.
They cannot differentiate between movies and reality. I am a Fernando Poe Jr. fan, yes.
His stance in “Hindi pa tapos ang laban”, especially that of his associate Berting Labra who faces a corrupt politician bravely and gets shot for it, is the fight for justice and nature.
The reality of FPJ is that he hung out with gangsters and supported Marcos, and even if he was a gentle gangster he was still a gangster, not a hero in his real life stuff.
Now Grace Poe has not shown in real life that she is against injustice like her father was in his fantasy, in his movies – but not in his real life. She lives in a fairy-tale kind of fantasy, which is even more dangerous than those who know they are fooling people like Binay…
Nonetheless, Hindi pa Tapos ang Laban is a great movie, it embodies the felt aspirations of the masa for a freedom fighter. But how do we teach them that reality ain’t that simple?
It would be interesting to find out the SET decision on Poe’s natural born citizenship issues, if I remember it right, it’s due on Nov. 17. I hope they release it on that promised date so Poe’s lawyer can elevate the case to the SC for final resolution, before the ballot forms are printed. We all must follow what the constitution requires for national government officials. That’s the legal issue. If its settled with finality in favor of Poe, the unthinking, star struck electorate will make it harder for Mar to win.
The moral issue is harder to explain to the mentioned electorate, most immigrants decided to go Poe’s way for convenience, OFWs, if given the chance will surely grab it to stay indefinitelly to the land of better opportunities, but they, as pointed out already, are not running for the presidency. Poe is different from them. IMHO, she was fortunate enough to be adopted by millionaire movie producers/stars so money is not an issue for her at any stage in her life. The adoptive parents have the financial capacity to give her the best education, a luxurious lifestyle not available to other foundlings, to send her to the US to further her education and be gainfully employed there while waiting to inherit her adoptive parents’ millions, married a US citizen and have a family there. Purely for convenience, (not to renew her right to stay there every year, or be allowed to sail through any airport immigration office everytime she travels…she could not be bothered to undergo such “hardships”) she took the oath of allegiance to the US government, only to renounce that again for the convenience of furthering her dreams of higher office, power and prestige made possible initially by PNOY whom she is now attacking with all her might just to maintain her popularity. BTW, I seem to remember her promising not to attack this government?…hmmm, another proof of her lack of sincerity, a character flaw not seen by so many.
Right, the issue goes beyond what the laws say, but how much trust we can place in Grace Poe. This, after all, is a woman who goes to popular issues like a fly to a karabao’s back (I liked that line), and attacks for the popularity of the attack, not the honesty of the issue. My confidence is plainly shattered and I don’t know how she reconstructs it. Getting angry at me won’t work, for sure, although I think that is likely to be her response. To bitterly attack the unfairness of it all.
Well, for sure, on thing is clear. Either she doesn’t “get it”, or I don’t
I wonder what does Grace Poe’s supporters say about this issue?
I’d be very interested on their thoughts.
Judging their mental conviction of The Binays, I’d say they will not vote for Grace Poe for technicalities, They will Vote for Grace Poe becaue The Filipinos see themselves in Grace Poe: Wanting to go to America. Get Nevada Driver’s License. Come back to Philippines. Then show-off their Nevada Driver’s License.
Filipinos do not understand technicalities. Definitely Grace Poe falls into this crack: Residency Issue. Filipinos do not understand Laws. They do not understand there is Residency Issue for those running for the highet office of the land. They still see Grace Poe as Filipino like they see Maria Salonga as Filipina like they see that “Filipina” American Idol as Filipina like they see all successful Americans with a drop of Filipino blood as FILIPINO.
My suki fish vendor still see Grace Poe as Filipino thru and thru like all other poor non-U.P. graduate Filipinos. If you tell them Grace Poe is not a Filipino but an American, they look at me, like, “WHAT?”
Filipinos do not understand laws. Like they do not understand the Bible. Filipinos vote with their heart not with their head. And this is where Grace Poe has the advantage.
Bingo. That’s why she is posturing herself as continuing the legacy of her father, such legacy basically that of being a popular star. Nothing at all to do with government service or knowledge or ability.
One on Twitter shifted the blame to Mar Roxas and LP for having accepted GP as a VP prospect. Essentially, the point is that everyone in politics is morally deficient, which to some extent is true. But this goes directly to Poe, and how much we can trust what she says. Maybe Mar Roxas will take a political expedience from time to time, as does President Aquino, but that is a bit different than one’s core character being expedience.
You do get it, she doesn’t, among other issues too deep for her to get.
my oh my. just yesterday afternoon the presidential beat reporters on AM radio dzmm were calling in the sound bites from their respective assignments. grace poe said that based on the latest SWS surveys, hunger incidence grew. she believed that obviously the CCT is not working and is calling for abilition of cct and instead provide livelihood for Filipinos. gadamet this is how dangerous a woman like this can be as president. she can’t seem to comprehend that the poor will likely remain poor because they are unproductive due to lack of education and skills (a marcos legacy by the way), and that CCT is a long term investment. i am now livid with this opportunistic woman who just like you said is similar to a fly on a carabao’s back who makes orchetrated attacks at even sound policies for popularity’s sake irregardless of how blatantly she disregards common sense in the process.
i’ve been trolling the net for a press release on her statement regarding abolition of CCT, zilch, naddah…. i am now wondering if the powers that be at media oulets are more focused on the business side of things. forget about policy statements of presidentiables that godforbid will point us in the wrong direction.
Dangerous, isn’t it, if that is her position? She would take a survey poll and have than mean more than the actual work done to understand and cure poverty. As if poverty can be wiped out overnight, on a wish and a prayer. She is beyond shallow, I’m thinking. That is simply irresponsible. Maybe she should propose the solution if she is going to register the complaint. Otherwise she is just a wild_eyed sensationalist.
I haven’t heard her say anything bad about the government as a whole but only some personages that needed to be criticized. I have always admired you MGG because you were always level headed but I think this issue of Grace Poe has gotten the better of you. You don’t even know her as a person and yet you accuse her so many things that most Filipinos would normally do.
You and your ilk here at Mr Joe’s blog do enjoy bashing her. Your justification, ad hominem, for not categorizing her as most our immigrant countrymen is that they are not running for president.
Are you saying that it is a moral issue only because she is running for president ? And that it is not a moral issue for all the others because they are not running. Actions are deemed moral or immoral, period. If Grace Poe is immoral then all of those immigrants who became citizens of other countries and then decided to come back to become Filipino citizens again are also immoral.
But let me digress. If for instance Grace Poe was a multi awarded personality in the field of social development/politics/ medicine/science, etc. Would you people be advocating her disqualification from the Senate and barring her from running for President.
I thought so. So let’s not pretend anymore. You don’t like Grace Poe because of intellectual bias. You think that she is an intellectual light weight. It is my belief that you are the same people who said that it was good that GMA cheated FPJ out of the 2004 presidential elections because FPJ was considered stupid and uneducated.
GMA was a bigger mistake than Erap. And it was because of the intellectual snobs like you and the top brass of the LP that made her presidency possible. And now you are dictating who we should elect again.
*******
1. “Actions are deemed moral or immoral, period.”
1.1. The above view is the essence of Kant’s categorical imperative by which acts are judged as either intrinsically bad or good according to normative rules. This is to say deontologically.
1.2. There are other ethical systems apart from deontology such as virtue ethics, consequentialism, and moral relativism. The latter usually deals with the differences in the character of people, cultures and historical periods. I will apply the term “moral relativism” to “context.”
1.3. Deontologically, stealing is intrinsically bad. However, there are cultures wherein stealing is permissible for a desperate man, with no other means, to engage in it in order to feed his hungry family. Another example is killing, which is also intrinsically bad. And yet we allow the killing of animals for food. We also allow the killing of other human beings in times of war, as a judicial penalty, and in self-defence.
1.4. Therefore, bad actions in themselves are not intrinsically bad. At times, they depend on context.
1.5. I will not discuss the idea that good actions can be adjudged bad according to their consequences. This is out of scope.
2. Filipinos who migrate to other countries and become citizens of their adopted countries are not performing an immoral act if they are sincere in their new allegiance. The Filipinos who opt to return to the Philippines, give up their adopted allegiance and renew their citizenship are also not performing an immoral act. Why? Because they are looking after their self-interest which is not in conflict with any other interests. And, situationally, there is no conflict in allegiances.
2.1. We might then conclude that at times the question of morality arises in cases where there is an actual or potential conflict of interests. This also brings up the question of loyalty.
2.2. In Grace’s case, the moral question arises precisely because she is running for office. The moral question arises in two respects as she is a candidate for the highest office in the land. Firstly, as a candidate for the highest office in the land, there should be no doubt after whose interests she should exclusively devote herself. Secondly, there should be no doubt where her loyalty lies.
2.3. As to the first, there is doubt because she swore to look after the interests of her adopted country. As to the second, there is also doubt because she renounced her loyalty to the Philippines.
2.4. It can be conceded that both countries recognize dual citizenship and dual allegiances, but the qualification for the highest office — not to mention local elective officials — does not permit dual allegiances and the possibility of a conflict of interests. This is implicit in the natural born citizenship requirement.
3. The point of digression is irrelevant… and the assumption of what the position of “you people” would take is presumptuous. Finally, the label “intellectual snobs” is uncalled for.
*****
Jolly Cruz,
How did you come to the conclusion that I am the same people who said that it was good that GMA cheated FPJ out of the 2004 presidential elections because FPJ was considered stupid and uneducated? Do you know me personally, do you the inner workings of my mind? FYI, I was among those who condemned GMA for that Hello Garci call, I am more for integrity and moral high ground than intellectual prowess of Marcos and GMA who used their intelligence for self interest eather than for the good of the country. Further, FYI, I did not vote for GMA, I voted for Bro. Eddie Villanueva…see I give more weight to moral uprightness and integrity than intelligence. I’m not an intellectual snob, and saying that is way out of line.. If you are for Poe, then so be it, don’t make this personal. If I say Poe is different from other Filipino migrants and OFWs because she is a rich heiress already employed and married there, and not financially challenged in a foreign land (which is my point in my comment), that is my opinion, kindly respect that. Other OFWs and migrants accept the fact that they can never aspire for a national government position here and possibly elsewhere for reasons already stated. There are court rulings cited to support this.
I voted for Poe in 2013 not knowing that she is not constitutionally qualified, relied on Comelec to screen the qualifications of candidates before having the ballots printed, now I know better. Her pronouncements after she led the surveys suddenly clarified for me that I had erred in voting for her, compared to her silence in the plunder cases of people around her before that surveys…
What I am concerned about now is: does she meet the requirements set by the Constitution to serve as government official? If the SC rules yes, then let her run and we will decide if she has the experience and the integrity needed, qualifications better than Mar. As simple as that.
Let me return your words: Your passionate defense of Poe has gotten the better of you.
Read my comments again.
“I haven’t heard her say anything bad about the government as a whole . . .” Her entire campaign approach appears to be to criticize the undertakings of government, from trains to infrastructure to (today) suggesting APEC planning did not consider the inconveniences of ordinary citizens. The strategy is aimed at giving her the image of expertise when she has no portfolio of her own. So she is posturing herself as a champion of the public by harping on every flaw, real or imaginary, she can come up with, to project competence at the expense of the government’s many good works. But it leads her into danger when she makes wild accusations that road-building has been timed to fit to the elections. They are not. Active building has been going on for years. She has never even read the NEDA plan, but that does not stop her from throwing out her populist, headline grabbing deceits.
You are right. I dislike the lady immensely. How about she just gives us a platform and tells us what she is going to ADD to what is being done. Rather than portray the admin as damaged goods that require her expertise for proper fixing?
“If for instance Grace Poe was a multi awarded personality in the field of social development/politics/ medicine/science, etc. Would you people be advocating her disqualification from the Senate and barring her from running for President.” – Jolly Cruz
The simple answer is YES…being multi-awarded personality in those fields is not required in the constitution, although it will be a good addition for her experience records. The constitution is clear: only natural born Filipino citizens, among other requirements are qualified to be government officials whether national or local. No ifs, no buts. It is our belief that individuals who have to undergo certain processes to be citizens are not natural born citizens as defined in the constitution. Now if her true parents will come forward and a DNA match is presented legally, then all these things will no longer be discussed, that is MY OPINION. I will let the residency issue be dealt with by the learned jurist. If none will come forward and if the numbers game in the SC will result in ruling Poe as NBFC, I will be disappointed, fuming mad even, but there’s nothing I can do but campaign harder for Mar and be vigilant in his choice of the SC associates that he will appoint, when he wins, to assure that fairness, the spirit and not the letter of the laws will prevail in the future rulings of the new set of SC justices. To be constitutionally qualified is just one concern for me, experience, honesty and integrity count a lot.
I so hate the term “you people”. And one more thing, we are not dictating who you would elect in 2016 didn’t do so even in previous elections. I hate dictators…and vote buyers and vote sellers and manipulators. This is a forum for exchange of opinios and ideas, if you can be convinced, we will rejoice, if not, that’s your decision although we will be disappointed.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/myanmar-burma-election-aung-san-suu-kyi-wins-seat-but-cannot-become-president-a6729566.html
For context.
If Poe was under house arrest for a decade and was given every chance to go back to the US if she wanted but has cast her lot in the Philippines and stays here, only then can I believe that her love for my country is real.
Grace Poe will tell you “my family is important than the Filipinos”.
Sadly that is what I also think she would say
Arrest? She was not even willing to be penned up by the VP slot for six years.
Declining the administration’s offer to run as VP the height of her “messianic pretensions. It’s time to ask what is really fueling her bid.”
Grace & Family are American Citizens.
Let us assume Grace Poe became the President of the Philippines …
China attacks …
America will protect the President of the Philippines because she is an American Citizen.
THIS IS GOOD!
Filipinos will be proud.
Grace Poe is picked by the Filipinos as their President …
Would Sereno swear HER as President?
If Sereno doesn’t swear HER as President …
Would Grace Poe do a President Aquino like what he did to Corona ?
Would Sereno swear Grace Poe as President?
If Sereno did, therefore, “constitutial residency requirement” is already moot
Therefore, Sereno is part of Grace Poe’s cabal against residency requirement.
Therefore, Sereno is resurrecting Condonation Principle.
BINAY HAPPY. FILIPINOS SAD.
Another scenario, Since Grace Poe is a lady President and Sreneo is a woman Chief of Supreme Court Sereno will have bias for Grace Poe to make it into the anals of Philippine History
Would PMAyers allow to be ruled by a Woman American Citizen? They have ben ruled by Cory, Gloria and now Grace Poe?
So many ifs …
Let us be reminded Filipinos drama and romanticism rules supreme over intelligence.
Poe has already put the US on notice that she will be the new sheriff in town, and the US should not expect the Philippines to do it the US way. It was a stunning PR move on her part. Putting the alliance aside in favor of her looking bold.
The so called PMAyers (coup plotters)are divided into segments ,those for Honasan,those fir Danny Lim and those for Trillanes.
Honasan supports Binay,Trillanes Poe, I do not know who Danny Lim supports,but he ran under LP once,but so did Grace as a guest candidate.
Danny Lim is Supremo for RAM guardians partylist meaning he is connected to Honasan,who is connected to Binay.
Karl, is that why he resigned as BOC chief Intelligence officer because of his connection with Binay?
What I remembered was PNoy dressed down the BOC because of smuggling and he did that at the SONA,don’t remember who resigned first Danny Lim or Ruffy Biazon.
But Danny Lim is RAM and we know Honasan is still the leader of RAM,so I connect him to Binay.
Okay, thanks. I thought he was a victim of collateral damage to the tug of war between pro-Binay and anti-Binay forces of PNoy administration.
My old man has been selling GPL to me,but no dice, the only time my dad says something nega about Grace is when she hits Abaya too hard. Funny.
But he is solid Trillanes,even if Trillanes hits Abaya he does not complain.
Me I am not allowed to say something bad about all of them,that is why I am typing it.
I am beginning to think they read me, because when I mentioned and tag Jun Abaya in FB about the laglag bala…a text message from Abaya and the OTS was sent to my dad, explaining or justifying that if the personnels morale is affected,they might not do their job.
my reaction was…DUH.
Allegiances apart from character. That’s my reaction. It’s the way people stay in power. Character flaws are accepted in favor of not rocking the boat of personal associations. You are being “encouraged” to fall into place properly.
we really should have fake accounts was threatened by a Marcos Loyalist a few weeks ago, I laughed at it but it scared my wife.
Strange that I was being pestered via tFB messenger chat into revealing where I live, asking for my pictures, etc, etc. one even called me via FB messenger calls, when I answered, I only hear beep, beep sounds…is it possible I was being traced as to where I am at that moment…? Are we still at martial law period, that’s funny since am just a nobody.
we dont want a Bangladesh scenario here.Take care Gian.me I got scared by porn comments and in a history group pa. In defense forums the loyalist are called fanboys because they claim that bbm will modernize AFP. Everytime i mention something,they say it has been done during Marcos time…Missiles,Etc
About my problem getting reactions from higher ups like Abaya and Trillanes,I wont be”feeling” and self absorbed. It might just be a coincidence.
Again Gian take care,and proceed with caution.
thanks karl
you too Mary.
Thanks, karl…God is with us, everyone…take courage in that.
UNITED NATIONS. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
TUMPAK !!!!
that should be amended to include ,unless they run for president.
FURTHER AMENDED, former ex-citizens should not vote for president in the country they run away from 🙂
former ex means filipino turned American then back to Filipino.
I don’t know if anyone of you saw/heard Grace, in a TV interview, defend her husband on the question of his love for the Philippines. I can’t recall her exact words now but essentially what she stated was that her husband has been casting his vote in Philippine elections since 1986 (to my recollection that was the snap elections where Cory was the opposition’s candidate against Marcos. How could this be at all possible, when he was an American citizen and no such thing as dual citizenship existed at that time. Perhaps, we should ask the Comelec to look into this matter.
Pushing like button.
Here is the link for what junie said.
Brian Poe can only smile when he hears about the intrigues thrown at his mother, Senator Grace Poe, soon after she made her intention to run for president in 2016.
Says Brian, “There is no truth that he and his father Niel Llamanzares can’t vote for Grace because of their dual citizenship. Both he and his dad are Americans but also hold Philippine passports.
“I have been voting as a Filipino since 2010,” declared the son of Senator Poe.
He was one of the more than 20 million voters that put Grace in the Senate in 2013. Sen. Poe had also reacted on this issue about her husband and son.
In a radio interview, Sen. Poe said that the parents of her husband are both Filipinos who went to the US for further studies on account of scholarships they were both granted.
“Since his parents are Filipinos, he is a Filipino, too. They say he can’t vote for me because he isn’t a Filipino. That’s not true. Since 1986, he was voting here in the Philippines, also in 2010 and 2013, and hopefully in 2016,” explained Sen. Poe.
Her two daughters are not of voting age yet, according to Susan Roces, mother of the Senator and widow of Fernando Poe, Jr.
Thanks, Karl.
My pleasure.
I cannot own a property in the Philippines. I cannot vote in the Philippines. I cannot be a Bloggy Awardee. All because I am an American.
A traitor Filipino who turned their back on the Philippines to become American should not vote in the Philippines.
COMELEC and Philipine consulate should not have these traitors register and legally fly-vote for Philippine Election.
COMELEC can check if the husband of Grace Poe did vote. If he did he is in violation of patrimony of the PHilippines. In my country ONLY AMERICAN CITIZENS CAN VOTE. If found out they are undocumented and out-of-status they get the brunt of the American Law to be deported after serving time in jail.
Before you all get carried away in a herd fenzy and burn Senator Poe and her husband for breaking Comelec laws, perhaps it is better not to presume both are not witches and bad to the bone and put your thinking caps on. Her husband were born of Filipino parents who studied in the US because of university scholarships. If he was born while they were students or before they became naturalized US citizens, assuming they ever did, Poe’s husband would be a natural born US citizen since America follows the jus soli doctrine and at the same time, he would also be a natural born Filipino citizen. Elementary my dear Watson and please put those ptchforks and stones away!
Yup! Emphasis on FORMER EX-CITIZENS. They should know what citizenship should they be on. Not flip-flopping around the world that can give them the most material wealth.
Grace Poe is a flip-flopping Filipino. She got tired of hearding children with Berreta tucked in their backpacks she came back to run the Philippines to herd Filipinos into Daan Matuwid.
For the nth time, Poe is not being denied a citizenship, nor a nationality. She is a Filipino citizen by virtue of being adopted by Filipino citizens, was once an American citizen, then reverted back to being Filipino citizen..this paawa effect, the victim effect, the persecuted one is being used to attract sympathy from the movie star struck electorates.
What is being discussed in the SET and in blogs and newspaper columns is if she is a natural born citizen or not, to satisfy the constitutional requirement, period.
I’m reminded of the Binay television ads which consist of a poor child weeping over the death of a woman whom I presume to be his mother. Done in black and white.
I’m wondering what that has to do with infrastructure investment.
Exactly, his often quoted speech is ” I was once poor so I know how you feel, how it is to be poor”, to tie up with his ads but queried about his billions now that he is a government official, he says “we’re not exactly poor naman, I inherited something from my mother”…liar, manipulator unmasked, that’s Binay.
He also stated he was once an adopted child when his camp attacked Grace Poe’s foundling status.
Binay and Grace Poe plays the emotion and attachment to drama of Filipinos. MAR IS AWARE OF THIS. That is why Mar never give prominence to his wife, Korina Sanchez-Roxas because it jeopardizes what Korina did to a housemaid.
Stop posting pronouncements that you can only validate with tsismis. You are taking too much liberty in exercising free speech.
MRP, at some points, you cross the line from literary license to trolling. I share the frustrations voiced by other readers that you are pushing buttons to push buttons rather than enlighten. I suppose you are at the 90% level of my patience, and at 100% I push the “moderate” button and kick you out for 30 days. It is within your control to participate along the lines of healthy, forthright discussion.
Re the Binay ads of a weeping boy over his dead mother, he says his mother died because they were too poor to give his mother good health care that money can provide….then contradicted himself when questioned about his billions now, saying they were not that poor before, he inherited something from his mother. If that is so, he should stop that political ad which is obviously designed to fool the masa voters into believing he was once poor like them.
Back to Poe’s citizenship, others are splitting hairs on the origin of hers, rejecting SC Sr. associate justice Carpio’s “naturalized” Filipino citizenship by virtue of international laws on foundlings, saying she did not undergo the naturalization process…so I said by virtue of the gift of citizenship by her adoptive parents.
First, Grace Poe is a Filipino. Her English is obviously Filipino.
2ndly, no matter how you cut and dice it, She is a Filipino.
The above shows obvious hypocrisy of the Filipinos. An American with a drop of Filipino blood is A FILIPINO. Example: Jessica Sanchez
And these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Filipino_Americans
They are claimed to be Filipinos when in fact they are Amerians.
GRACE POE IS AN AMERICAN NOT A FILIPINO BECAUSE SHE IS TOO POPULAR TO WIN MALACANANG.
I JUST DO NOT GET FILIPINOS.
When you dont get or don’t understand something, research and study before you rant.
In this case study the constitution. No one is saying Poe is not a Filipino citizen, because she is, was, and is again. But she is not a natural born citizen as defined by the constitution. And only natural born Filipino citizens are qualified to hold government positions, dig?
The SC will rule on that with finality.
Kinda like these rights, MRP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Bill_of_Rights_for_Women_in_the_Mosque
Meanwhile, the Binay camp said it received information the Anti-Money Laundering Council (AMLC) “intends to file a civil forfeiture case” against the Vice President and his family.
Go Anti-Money Laundering Council!
Thus, the big questions for social and economic historians to tackle are, in my view: Why did Joblessness rise so much from the decade of 1994-2004 to the decade of 2005-2014? Is the relatively low Joblessness of 2015 a sign of a possible return to the less stressful time of 1994-2004? Mahar Mangahas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Iohannis – just to give a contrast with the corruption-fighting (Lutheran) present President of Romania who is an ethnic German and was a teacher also:
Born in a house in the historic centre of Sibiu to a Transylvanian Saxon family, Klaus Iohannis is the eldest child of Susanne and Gustav Heinz Johannis. He has a younger sister, Krista Johannis (born 1963).[6] His father worked as a technician at an enterprise, while his mother was a nurse.[7] Both his parents as well as his sister emigrated from their native Sibiu (German: Hermannstadt) to Würzburg in Germany in 1992, acquiring citizenship there under the right of return granted by German nationality law,[8][9] as most other Transylvanian Saxons after the fall of the Iron Curtain. However, he chose to live and work in Romania.[10] As of 2014, his parents, sister and a niece live in Würzburg.[11] Iohannis has stated that his family settled in Transylvania in present-day Romania 850 years ago.[12] After graduating from the Faculty of Physics of the Babeș-Bolyai University in Cluj-Napoca in 1983, Iohannis worked as a high school physics teacher at various schools and colleges in Sibiu, including, from 1989 to 1997, the Samuel von Brukenthal Gymnasium in Sibiu, the oldest German-speaking school in Romania. From 1997 to 1999, he was Deputy General School Inspector of Sibiu County, and from 1999 until his election as mayor in 2000, he was the General School Inspector, head of public schools in the county.
Now that is a major difference – Iohannis could easily have migrated, and without even swearing any oath of allegiance. Becoming American is like joining a fraternity or becoming a born-again Christian if you do it as an adult – German citizenship is often granted because of origins.
Yet he chose to stay in Romania and not only was a teacher, but took a major part in rebuilding the public school system there. His folks live in Bavaria, that is their choice, he made his choice.
His extremely principled stand on corruption must come from his Lutheran upbringing. I cannot imagine an Orthodox Christian going that way, well the head of the DNA anticorruption authority is Orthodox but she is of the young, modernizing generation. A Roma (gypsy) politician was the one to try to get an amnesty through for certain kinds of corruption, but Iohannis smote things down. Now even Orthodox Transylvanians have a different, more honest attitude than in Bucharest. Seems the 2/3 gypsy population in the capital city does infect with their, sorry to say, pragmatic attitude to everything, even if I do like their party attitude and their music, and survival skills. But luckily popular gypsy musicians like Florin Salam stay in music, and make really good stuff…
http://lyricstranslate.com/de/saint-tropez-saint-tropez.html-0#ixzz3rRe93aqQ
Manele is the gypsy answer to hiphop, the text of the above song says it all… it is about the aspirations of the oppressed to riches… but manele musicians and American gangsta rappers don’t go into politics, not even Kayne West, or Florin Salam who is as popular… Certain Philippine politicians should stay in showbiz where they belong, or maybe the Philippines needs its own answer to hiphop, blues, Portuguese fado, Romanian manele? The emotional need to overcome the ballast of centuries of oppression was and is being dealt with that way by American blacks, Portuguese people and Romanian gypsies… The scenes from the video remind me a bit of Napoles kid’s lifestyle, but earned via selling records, not by stealing from state coffers. Those who have been poor or their parents or grandparents want to feel rich for a while, those who feel too dark may want to be with a white guy or a white girl for a while, Florin Salam is dancing with a tall blonde actress… 🙂
The most special song’s coming next
For all the Romanian’s barons
From your Florin Salam
Better said the Romania’s Brilliant
For every rich people
That knows how to live the life
All my respect for them!
One, two, three
You rich men
Come on have fun
Come on have fun
Of, ah lele, ah lelele
Let’s spend money, money, money
Because time passes, passes, passes
Because time passes
Of, ah lele, ah lelele
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Trough America and trough Africa
That life goes on
Ragadaga da
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Take your wife and your lover
That life’s beautiful
Na ma
Let’s go
Tarara, tarara
Let’s go
Da haide
Let’s go
Da haide
Let’s go
Tycoon’s life
or Emperor’s life
I always live like that yes
Ah lele, ah lelele
Queen woman
Get into my car
I will make you have a good time
Ah lele, ah lelele
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Trough America and trough Africa
That life goes on
Ragadaga da
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Trough America and trough Africa
That life goes on
Ragadaga da
Salam! Florin Salam, Salam yes
Salam hey! Makes you enjoy the best!
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Trough America and trough Africa
That life goes on
Ragadaga da
Come on in holidays
To Saint Tropez
Trough America and trough Africa
That life goes on
Ragadaga da
And yes, manele sounds Oriental. The Romanians were under the Turks for 3 centuries.
That, their religiosity, massive poverty, social inequality, family-orientation, corruption, party attitude, getting by attitude, former dictatorship, new democracy, fight against corruption, workers abroad, nascent BPO industry and more form so many parallels to the Philippine situation that their example is worth looking at to apply whatever lessons may apply to the Philippines. And I spent nearly a year there, and know many of them here…
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/business-process-outsourcing-bpo-sector-romania-jackie-bojor – as former colonial people, they are also very adaptable and resilient…
Romania is ranked 2nd in Europe and 9th globally as preferred destination for business services. The business services sector is a growing industry in Romania.
The Romanian market of outsourcing and support services is estimated at over 1.5 billion EUR. The outsourcing and shared services sector in Romania has recorded annual growth of over 10% in 2012 and 2013. According to market players, the Romanian market of Contact Center was estimated at approximately 200 million EUR in 2012, with an average annual growth rate of 10 – 15% in the past years. It is likely that the growing trend will continue.
“I have not checked, but I would bet that there are Filipino names on the Viet Nam Memorial wall, etched for all to see . . . that these Filipinos, who undoubtedly loved their homeland as you do, meant their oath of allegiance to America.”
Joe,
But I’d also venture that many of those Filipino-American vets are living in the Philippines, hence the robust VA presence outside of the U.S. Our Sr. Chief Navy corpsman, spoke lovingly of his home in so and so province where he planned to retire and of his brothers (also US Navy SNCOs) already living there.
My question though, is can a person have two allegiances? If not, why?
If American/Israelis can pull it off, and the nation of Israel actively spies and manipulates US policy, why not?
Here’s a list of high ranking American/Israelis: https://www.facebook.com/notes/we-are-all-vittorio-arrigoni/list-of-politicians-with-israeli-dual-citizenship-/175479365845092
I’ve moved two of your sexually graphic posts to trash as they do not belong here, both for being way off topic and too explicit for my tastes.
You raise the same point that josephivo raises. Laws permit dual citizenship. It is common. It is even done at the presidential level in some countries.
If that is the argument, then the Poe camp should make it and see how it flies. Rather, the point has been to tout the Philippine relationship and discard the American one. She should not discard the American one. She should be proud of it.
Then I would trust that she is dealing straight rather than dealing for expedience.
“Rather, the point has been to tout the Philippine relationship and discard the American one. She should not discard the American one. She should be proud of it.”
I get your point now, Joe. From that perspective, it appears they did step on a smelly PR poop, pretty hard to wipe it off now.
“I’ve moved two of your sexually graphic posts to trash as they do not belong here, both for being way off topic and too explicit for my tastes.”
Well the first post addressed to bauwow was advanced material. But the second post on Islam and the right to orgasm was less explicit, more informative, can I bring that up again under my “Islamic Renaissance” article? — ie. treatment of women, clitorectomy, women’s rights, 4 wives policy, child brides, etc…..
Yes, if done in that context, it would be fine.
Slightly off-topic… the picture of the DOST AGT in Bicutan on my Learning Center FB page is slowly trending… it is an accomplishment of the Aquino administration as well.. and I am glad that there are Filipinos who are proud of scientific and technological achievements… see comments!
This can easily be worded for an easy understanding. She married a man for love and bore children, when her heart desired for another love, she left her husband and decide to serve the other. No one will will ask who her father/mother is,but will ask why and how could she leave the man whom she has children.
That’s the moral question, in a nutshell. Legal rationalists will say because divorce is sometimes constructive. My answer would be, how did either the Philippines or America betray THEIR part of the trust and loyalty equation.
I think, rather, the statement should be that she retains loyalty for both nations.
That, unfortunately, in the Position of President, is a huge conflict of interest. So it might work for the everyday Jose, but not for a candidate for President.
So she has to deny one loyalty.
And that makes for the moral dilemma. She said the oaths.
True.. I could never become Philippine President, not only because I have been away for 33 years, fuck Ferdie and fuck a few others for making the choice to stay abroad easy for me, but I never relinquished my (natural-born in Berlin, ius sanguinis) Filipino citizenship… I am German citizen by application of law, the zone between natural-born and naturalized, I even have a certificate that proves that I derive that from my mother, since Germans are thorough no legal debate that I am not a natural-born German, but I will not run here also.
When I joined the KM in 1981, I swore to myself that I would not be loyal to the Filipino state of that day, because it did not truly represent the Filipino nation, and I stayed true to that inner oath by never applying for a Filipino passport again since after I left the country. What I broke was my oath to the Kabataang Makabayan, I left them because I saw they were betraying the nation and the youth, they used us, and the NDF is Chinese-supported.
Now once, during my childhood, a nationalistic and pro-Marcos Filipino teacher asked me – what will you do if Germany and the Philippines go to war? I said Sir, I will desert, I will not fight because I have people on both sides, and I will bear the consequences of that act… but I will do everything so that both countries never go to war. Which is why my own blog and FB page are dedicated to the Philippines, and to the Filipino-German relationship which is very good now – K-12+ with Dual Training qualifying Filipinos and giving the poor opportunities while bridging the gap between theory and practice in the Philippines, PNP getting training (both professional and human rights) from German police abroad and in the Philippines are both examples of how Germany is helping the Philippines advance.
Goethe, the German equivalent of Rizal, once wrote that he had two souls in his heart. The situation was a different one, but it is a good metaphor for many dual situations.
I do not have two souls in my heart. A Filipina vice-consul once told me I am a Filipino in my heart and a German in my head. So no Filipino political offices for me, but I do see my role in inspiring and teaching our countrymen, based on my experiences in this world.
Now once the Philippines has a government that truly represents its people, I might get a Filipino passport again. The present laglag-bala controversy shows how some parts of the government are still postcolonial oppressors, while the leadership is showing that they are beginning to do something about it. Evolution, not revolution. Once the Filipino state becomes truly of the people and by the people, I will be able to apply for a Filipino passport again without breaking the oath I made to myself at the age of 15, 35 years ago.
Leni Robredo is definitely one step further to that true Filipino state, a Presidency of Leni in 2022, then Bam Aquino in 2028 would complete that process. Hope to see that day. My Filipino heart yearns for it, and my German mind is doing what it can to make this happen.
Which is to say.. there are good reasons for breaking an oath… and in some situations there are even good reasons for betrayal…
A Columbian song sung by a man sings of love that is no longer there, about a piece of paper that keeps them together and cannot be ripped apart… my life is controlled by the law, but only I control my heart, you are like the sea, I am like the sky, even if I am above you I will never come down to you to join you… now I ask myself, does Grace Poe know where her heart lies… does she know where her mind is… and who has her soul now?
Very nicely said. My problem, typical for a Gemini I suppose, is my heart is in two places, and so is my head, and they are very comfortable there.
My heart and my head too, being a Gemini as well, born in the Year of the Snake 1965.
My nature is dual in very many senses, but it helps in understanding many things better. And we Geminis are usually lucky when it comes to the ladies, thank the stars for that.
Hahaha, oh, my. I cannot deny . . .
PNP is very well prepared for APEC… the Pope’s visit already showed it – a modern police force.
To all who think the government is weak, show them this…
Mar Roxas reorganized the PNP into an effective force… and as someone living in Bavaria who knows how good the cops are here, I am happy the Bavarian State Police has helped.
You would be interested to know that Roxas in Cebu stepped his rhetoric up a notch. He called VP Binay “the denial king” for his refusal to see what was causing traffic problems in Manila, and he instructed Sen. Escudero to study up on things before he criticizes them, pertaining to Escudero’s accusation that the Roxas bus plan would take all the buses off EDSA (it would not). “See, he is clueless again because he does not understand my proposal. In fact, my proposal will bring relief to all the commuters in Metro Manila because there will be a proper bus system.” said Roxas.
http://www.mb.com.ph/mar-tells-chiz-to-study-traffic-platform-first/
http://www.mb.com.ph/roxas-calls-binay-denial-king/
One he called the “denial king”, the other “clueless”.
Popcorn time.
Finally! Take that, Chiz and Binay.
With the recent events in France, APEC members will bring their own bullets thru NAIA. PnP is just palpak-na-palpak.
For APEC coverage, I trust big boys of FOREIGN MEDIA. They report news for the people whereas University of the Philippines journalism graduates report news for people who are graduates of HARVARD and PRINCETON !!!
What I am saying, big boys of FOREIGN MEDIA report news that can be understood by kindergartners ….
MRP, you are sounding more like the Marcos trolloyalists with every posts of yours,
With the recent Mamasapano rescue …
With the recent rescue of hostages in Jolo where they brought in howitzers not H&K …
With the Chinese bus massacre in the background ….
APEC MEMBERS WILL BRING THEIR OWN ARMY ….. and bullets …. thru NAIA.
When dealing with Marcos loyalists and pro-Chinese idiots, let us alway remember this…
And to those who say Aquino is not a statesman, show them this…
The President’s statement on what just happened in Paris.
and this example to show that the Philippines is now following the Dutch approach – to build responsibility at the local level for defense against the power of nature. The Dutch built their national unity at the local level first, fighting the sea as communities, then they used this unity to drive out the Spanish. In the Philippines they drove out the Spanish first, now they are defending themselves against nature, and in the end they may find unity.
Terrorist will be terrorized by France !!!! Long live France! C’est la vie !!!!
C’est la vie !!! The World needs to deal with Muslim issue like they dealth with Jew issue in the early century. The arrogance of Jew is gone. This time we deal with violence and arrogance of Muslims.
Extremist Muslims. Take care, MRP, it is not the time for inflammatory remarks. It is the time to grant France time to grieve and recover.
Voltaire said something like this, I re-translate it directly from the French original:
Your opinion is disgusting, but I will die for your right to express it.
And I would say, “yeah, but put it into your own blog and not mine.”
he never comments in my blog… guess there is not enough audience there.
if he made a comment like that, I would ask him to explain why he sees it that way. That statement borders on “inciting public outrage” which is illegal in Germany, if he trolled that statement I would have to delete the repetitions, or be prepared to give his IP address to the public prosecutors’ office, which cannot be stopped here in Germany and works on presumption of guilt. They might even confiscate my computers, and I would get them back only after the case is done in court. So there are limits to Voltaire’s ideal, definitely, and they make a lot of sense. Propagandistic distortions are more than just opinions.
The Paris attacks last night seem in line with the 2008 Mumbai attacks. The tactics used is for active-shooter. 2 to 3 police officers deploy, search and locate, with rescue elements close by (but with no weapons).
The police have to learn infantry tactics, attack whilst communicating, and Sgts and Lts. have to be able to communicate back and move teams and squads around quickly and appropriately. Rescue elements (usually Fire Dept.) have to have weapons now– acting as field medics.
Right now the tactic is still for lone (or one venue) active shooters, ala Colombine.
“inciting public outrage”. You should’ve seen FOX News light up last night, they paraded all their military and intel “experts” and Muslim “experts” to boot, and all pretty much agree with MRP (except for the Jew part, because FOX and Republicans love Israel).
The Google glass, if they can get the gps on each represented as dots in a building or compound, etc, so cops know where their buddies are deployed as they clear buildings and search would be a great development,
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1241 – the German law is quite clear on the aspect of inciting public outrage, and I think it is a good thing in order to keep all public discussions toned down – it was to prevent new Hitlers from coming:
Section 130
Incitement to hatred
(1) Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace
1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioined group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population,
shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) Whosoever
1. with respect to written materials (section 11(3)) which incite hatred against an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault their human dignity by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming them,
(a) disseminates such written materials;
(b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;
(c) offers, supplies or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or
(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of Nos (a) to (c) or facilitate such use by another; or
2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in No 1 above by radio, media services, or telecommunication services
shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.
(3) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.
(4) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying, or justifying National Socialist rule of arbitrary force shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.
(5) Subsection (2) above shall also apply to written materials (section 11(3)) of a content such as is indicated in subsections (3) and (4) above.
(6) In cases under subsection (2) above, also in conjunction with subsection (5) above, and in cases of subsections (3) and (4) above, section 86(3) shall apply mutatis mutandis.
A lot of Anti-American sentiments during the Dubya years also had to do with German citizens of Oriental descent being given very strange, nearly Jim Crow type treatment by some American immigration officers who might just have watched too much Fox News.
I know a Persian with Swedish citizenship. He fled from Iran at the age of 17 on the back of a mule via Afghanistan to evade the draft for the Iran-Iraq war. His brother couldn’t and flew helicopters against Saddam Hussein near the border to Basra – German citizen now. That Persian applied for a visa to work for an American company in Phoenix, but was denied that because of his birthplace – Teheran. He now works in Qatar as a manager. Probably the spirit spread by Fox News among others helped make Abu Ghraib possible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Taguba – BTW the General who was important in investigating Abu Ghraib was of Filipino origin… Rumsfeld didn’t like him at all I read…
Taguba was born in Sampaloc, Manila, the Philippines, the city to which his family had moved from their home province of Cagayan. His father was a soldier in the 45th Infantry Regiment, Philippine Division (Philippine Scouts), who fought in the Battle of Bataan (January–April 1942) during World War II and after capture by the Japanese survived the Bataan Death March. Taguba was raised by his mother and grandmother. When he was eleven years old, his family moved to Hawaii, U.S….
In 2004, Taguba was assigned to report on abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. In May of that year, he published an extremely critical report that was leaked to the public.[10] Later that month, Major General Taguba was reassigned to the Pentagon to serve as deputy assistant secretary of defense for readiness, training and mobilization in the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs.[9] Describing his thoughts upon being informed by John Abizaid a few weeks after the leak that he and his report would be investigated, Taguba said “I’d been in the Army thirty-two years by then, and it was the first time that I thought I was in the Mafia.”[10]
In January 2006, General Richard A. Cody, the Army’s Vice-Chief of Staff, instructed Taguba to retire by the following January. No official explanation was given; Taguba himself believes his forced retirement was ordered by civilian Pentagon officials in retaliation for his report on abuse of prisoners.[10] Taguba’s retirement, effective January 1, 2007, ended a 34-year career of military service.[7]
Yeah, there’s definitely a connection between demonizing Muslims and FOX News, and since FOX News is joined at the hips with the Republican party, affects policy negatively both in the short and long term.
I didn’t know that about Gen. Taguba,
but a bunch of Generals (especially those retired) were very vocal against Sec. Donald Rumsfeld. One US Marine General Anthony Zinni was the most critical (he had a lot of time in the Philippines, also was involved in the Aceh peace talks). I’m a big fan of Zinni, http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j010204.html
Right, and the offense is multiplied by the power of this blog’s reach, versus say, GRP, where something like that is said every day. They talk mainly to themselves. This blog has readership. I’m sensitive that people may want to “use” the forum for purposes other than discussion.
:), hehehe, why is it that this exchanges is giving me the impression that Voltaire is such a tough act to follow?
If I write “Kill Bert, he is a rapist and lives on Cagraray island”, then it is not an opinion, I might cause people to come and kill you. Same thing if I say that Muslims are a danger to the whole world, it might cause stupid people to start doing bad things to Muslim people.
MRP writing about Jewish arrogance is a disgusting opinion. Hitler shouting “the Jews are our curse” made people believe that it is correct to round up Jews into train wagons…
I fully agree.
I am presently translating Joe’s article into Filipino, and will reblog it shortly…. ABANGAN.
Adobo is cooked, but not yet ready for serving.
I will eat first and then serve the adobo to y’all.
Dinner is ready for eating: http://filipinogerman.blogsport.eu/pagkatao-grace-poe/
Thank you, Irineo. I’m sure many readers will appreciate the translation. I’ve put a reference link in the blog, at the top . . . as was your convention. I appreciate the contribution to wider readership.
Would Cong. Robredo have the same tune on this issue if Sen. Poe acccepted to run as VP of Sec. Roxas? At this early stage does Cong. Robredo started to think/act as politician instead of public servant? Sorry to say this I think Cong. Robredo is changing her moral value in the sense of judging Sen. Poe. I wish Cong. Robredo will keep her fair judgement to everyone regardless which political party. I am still holding on Cong. Robredo will keep her integrity.
Juan dela Cruz, Leni Robredo is saying what needs to be said. That’s integrity in and of itself. If Senator Poe-Llamanzares doesn’t want to be judged, she should stay away from politics. Even gymnasts are judged, awarded points on the basis of set criteria. You cannot bend rules to your liking and present yourself as the center of good governance.
Agree, Willy. But I’m wondering, what is it for Leni, saying that against Grace Poe, as far as improving her rating in the polls is concern? Just curious.
DJB made a rampage in Joe’s fb account using voltaire.That was the time he demanded Joe to reveal himself,I think it was about Harry Roque.
sorry Bert,wrong place at the wrong time.Not a word press glitch,my bad.
Okay lang, karl. Pag nirumble naman tama na rin, :).
@Bert di ba taya sa jai-alai yung nirurumble baka sakaling maka chamba.
Karl, you are referring to my Voltaire comment. You have to know when Voltaire is applicable and when he is not applicable. And I don’t mean Secretary Voltaire Gazmin.
Joe wrote: “I read that a Ph attorney claims bloggers are just like journalists and have to abide by libel laws. I hope he understands that we are actually highly advanced journalists in that we allow “right of reply” in the discussion threads, or even – at my blog – in contrary posts.
And I trust he is not making application of the “chilling effect” by suggesting we ought not have opinions that he disagrees with.”
In the Philippines, laws are contradictory and ambiguous, plus the lawyers and judges are often pilosopo, not philosophers but sophists who interpret words and not meaning.
In Germany, the laws are very clear, the protection against impunity is given by the government, so I follow press laws that require me to state my full name and address, and follow the exact words of the German Criminal Code, section 130-131, section 185-200 – they are so clearly written that even a half-educated layman like me can understand them: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html – and for everything else I have my lawyer who is also my friend. In the Philippines I would go Radio Bandido. There I would have to fear lawsuits or worse, here I doubt anyone will assasinate me, and even if they try I have the sixth sense formed by growing up under Martial Law, a sort of paranoia that has kept me safe in many situations. And fallbacks if something happens, anyone who does something to me cannot get far, and if he does there would be a very good investigation and some of my folks here would certainly follow up on that publicly.
The ear is the avenue to the heart…common sense is not so common
I think the first salvo came from Grace Llamanzares when she likened her citizenship case with Jesse Robredo where Cong. Leni Robredo shot back that Jesse didn’t renounce his Filipino citizenship and so their citizenship case is not the same.
I think Cong. Leni Robredo saw what mettle Grace Llamanzares is made of… will use anything to further her career….
Totally agree
*******
1. The Local Government Code of 1991 (RA 7160) provides for the following:
1.1. “Section 40. Disqualifications. The following persons are disqualified from running for any elective local position:
(a) Those sentenced by final judgment for an offense involving moral turpitude or for an offense punishable by one (1) year or more of imprisonment, within two (2) years after serving sentence;
(b) Those removed from office as a result of an administrative case;
(c) Those convicted by final judgment for violating the oath of allegiance to the Republic;
(d) Those with dual citizenship;
(e) Fugitives from justice in criminal or non-political cases here or abroad;
(f) Permanent residents in a foreign country or those who have acquired the right to reside abroad and continue to avail of the same right after the effectivity of this Code; and
(g) The insane or feeble-minded.”
1.2. “Section 60. Grounds for Disciplinary Actions. – An elective local official may be disciplined, suspended, or removed from office on any of the following grounds:
(a) Disloyalty to the Republic of the Philippines;
(b) Culpable violation of the Constitution;
(c) Dishonesty, oppression, misconduct in office, gross negligence, or dereliction of duty;
(d) Commission of any offense involving moral turpitude or an offense punishable by at least prision mayor;
(e) Abuse of authority;
(f) Unauthorized absence for fifteen (15) consecutive working days, except in the case of members of the sangguniang panlalawigan, sangguniang panlungsod, sangguniang bayan, and sangguniang barangay;
(g) Application for, or acquisition of, foreign citizenship or residence or the status of an immigrant of another country; and
(h) Such other grounds as may be provided in this Code and other laws.
An elective local official may be removed from office on the grounds enumerated above by order of the proper court. “
2. REPEAT: this code is for elective local officials. However it is relevant to ask:
2.1. Re Section 40 (f): whether it should be applicable to elective national officials?
2.2. Re Section 60 (g): whether such actions of an elective national official in the past gives substance to the ethical question that Leni has raised?
3. Also: Is Section 40 (g) applicable to some national candidates?
***
P.S. Karl, I wonder if there is a similar code for elective national officials.
*****
When I slip into darker moments, I could easily put 1.1 (g) into bold print.
I think national gov’t lawmakers are deeper into the protections of impunity and you will not find such rules for them. It takes an ethical conscience.
The guru is asking the librarian. What an honor!
The omnibus election code only disqualifies those caught receiving bribes,excess campaign contribution,immigrant,and something else I forgot,that goes for all candidates,but for local elective posts,they should refer to the local government code.
come to think of it ,why is Comelec so lenient?
Time to change the omnibus election code adapt portions from the lgc.
*******
Thanks, Karl. So you have stiffer qualifications and disqualifications for local officials? Ridiculous!
*****
hindi halata strikto para sa local officials kasi Mayor si Erap.
Impunity gets deeper the further up the power chain you go. It is quite logical, and very real. There is also an inverse correlation on ethical bearing. The higher you go, the less pressure is applied for ethical behavior. Big media are pretty high up the chain, but are starting to catch a lot of heat in social media. The Senate is at the top, along with the Supreme Court. Executive reflects the ethical character of the President of the time and can be either tight or loose.
WHY WE HAVE GONE DOWN to speculation is because U.P.-journalists would rather ASK AND NEVER DIG FOR EVIDENCES.
We’d have stopped debating Grace Poe if these so-called U.P.-journalists gone to the US and check our State Department of her renouncation of American Citizen.
We’d have stopped debating about Grace Poe’s DNA if so-called UP journalists stole the drinking glass of Grace Poe and sent it to the US for DNA match.
The problem with Filipinos is they are still living in the days of the Bible where there are no evidences just eyewitness accounts.
THEREFORE, Philippine Laws are faith-based that is why they prefer to ask questions instead of evidences.
The Inquirer did it again… the FB share still reflects the original headline while the Inquirer itself has already changed the wording… disgusting and misleading.
One commenter on my page called it akward, my answer to that was “more than…” 😦
how did someone change the title into that? whodunnit? I am sure Inquirer will deny it.
when I saw that in FB i thought it was a prank by you,but it is not April fool’s nor is it Ninos inocentes, my unedited comment to you was,how did you change the title into that,and why? But obviously this is what I was talking about a few montgs ago,that the campaign fundraising issue will ressurect.
Saw it somewhere else and then shared it on my page…
either someone faked it or Inquirer had the headline originally.
somebody on my page commented that the writer is rumored to be a BINAYaran…
If somebody faked an Inquirer headline, the Inquirer should go after them with a herd of attorneys.
slightly off-topic again – this is a wonderful quote from Deng Xiaoping I posted on my page…
and yes, Mao Zedong might be turning in his grave, to see his country which he wanted to free from the oppression by European powers, USA and Japan turn into an imperialistic menace.
Similar to a sarcastic comment in a British newspaper about the Philippine-American war: to the Americans, from your former colonizers, do you now have to shoot Filipinos in order to free them?
Don’t remember the exact text, but it was something similar… which goes to show that in this world, roles can change over time. Portugal was a ruthless colonizer as well… but they lost.
They became nearly an English colony later, and suffered the Salazar dictatorship.. times change.
GRACE POE SAID SHE RENOUNCED HER AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP. U.P.-JOURNALISTS should check with ICE if she did renounce her citizenship.
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html
Renunciation of U.S. Nationality
A. THE IMMIGRATION & NATIONALITY ACT
Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)) is the section of law governing the right of a United States citizen to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship. That section of law provides for the loss of nationality by voluntarily
“(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state , in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State” (emphasis added).
HERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH FILIPINO U.P. JOURNALISTS. They do not have brains. THEY ARE LAZY. They prefer Q&A instead of digging up evidences.
They are sooooooo Low-IQ. They rely on witness accounts, confessions and admissions. TO STOP ALL THIS BROUHAHAHA THEY should go to America and check if she did renounce !!!
Iknow this. And I am not even graduate of UNIVERSITY OF THE PHILIPPINES. Go to America. Find out yourselves. STOP ENTERTAINING US. STOP MAKING A FOOL OF FILIPINOS !!!!
SO, U.P.-JOURNALISTS here are two assignments for you peeps:
1. Check COMELEC if it is true as Grace Poe claimed that her American husband voted since 1986
2. Go to U.S. State Departmnt to ask for notarized ceritfied true copy of Grace Poe’s renounceation of AmericanCitizenship …
Oh, on the side, if you UP journalists still have enough money could you DROP BY HONG-KONG and see if Korina Sanchez renounced her Hong-Kong citizenship. IT FEELS CREEPY a Chinese is sleeping in Malacanang.
Yun lang. Thank you.
Aha! Ha! Ha! GRACE POE RENOUNCIATION OF HER AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP is not DEBATEABLE.
Binay’s Mt. Makiling is not debateable
Jun-Jun’s Parking is not debatable
all they have to do is do their legwork for evidences. Instead of Trillanes asking around.
By the way did Cayetano renounce his American citizenship? He is an American by virtue of his father.
SO, THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE THAT NEEDED CHECKING:
1. Cayetano
2. Grace Poe
3. Husband of Grace Poe
4. Korina Sanchez. If you people do not know she is a Chinese Citizen.
Cayetano is Filipino because his father is Filipino. His mother is American. Get your facts straight Mr Know It All.
To those lazy dense UP-jouranlsits, Senators and Congressmen. THIS IS A GOOT JUNKET FOR YOU.
Here is the address to our US Department of State so you can sniff Grace Poe out:
US Department of State
1701 N Fort Myer Dr, Arlington, VA 22209
Please call for appointment (703)875-6361
I want the answerrs one week from now !!!! MAKE IT GOOD. KEEP IT REAL.
So says the dictator MRP…
I WISH one week from now I do not hear any more Grace Poe citizenship.
I WISH one week from now once found out she did not renounce her citizenship GRACE POE SHOULD QUIT AND GO BACK TO MY COUNTRY.
Grace Poe’s DNA is comical.
Where DNA = Dili Na Americana
Then forget about the Philippines, don’t read our UP led newspapers, or blogs about the Philippines…
Here is the deal THAT ALL FILIPINOS should swear with their LIFE. If Grace Poe becomes President of United States of America … PLEASE DO NOT CLAIM HER AS FILIPINO. OK, Filipinos? OK, Filipinas?
DO NOT EVER CLAIM GRACE POE AS AN AMERICAN AND MR. LLMANZARES. OK? DEAL KA NA BA?
“Para kay Grace ang pagpalit-palit ng citizenship ay para lang nagpapalit ng panty.” – Lola Ebeng
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korina_Sanchez
Korina Sanchez born in Hong-Kong
Nationality: Filipino
HUH?
Did she renounce her Hong-Kong citizenship? Somebody gotta check this out.
Did she apply for Filipino citizenship? Somebody gotta check her out.
No Questions-and-Answers.
Just Evidence. Just Evidence.
Check out Philippine Foreign Affairs Office.
It is creepy our Mar Roxas is sleeping with the emeny.
Probably by ius sanguinis law. I do not think that Hong Kong had ius solis in 1964 when she was born, it was a British colony at that time and the British never had ius solis.
Ius solis was something the French and Americans started when they had their revolutions.
Now even if Korina had been a Hong Kong citizen, she would not automatically be a Chinese citizen, since Hong Kong only went to China in 1997, what were the rules then? Lots of Hong Kong Chinese left for Vancouver and contributed to making it a very rich city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_Hong_Kong#British_Nationality_Act.2C_1948
The Commonwealth of Nations’ heads of government decided in 1948 to embark on a major change in the law of nationality throughout the Commonwealth. It was decided at the conference that the United Kingdom and the self-governing dominions would each adopt separate national citizenship, but retain the common imperial status of British subject. The British Nationality Act, 1948 provided for a new status of Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC), consisting of British subjects who had a close relationship (either through birth or descent) with the United Kingdom and its remaining colonies. The Act also provided that British subjects could be known by the alternative title Commonwealth citizen.
The Act came into force on 1 January 1949 and stipulated that anyone born in “United Kingdom or a colony” on or after that date was a CUKC. Those who were British subjects on 31 December 1948 were entitled to acquire CUKC status by declaration. The deadline for this was originally 31 December 1949, but the deadline was extended to 31 December 1962 by the British Nationality Act, 1958.
So she probably was a Commonwealth citizen or a “British colonial citizen” at birth, but also a Filipino citizen by ius sanguinis, since I assume that Sanchez is not a Chinese name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_Hong_Kong#Chinese_view_on_nationality_of_Hong_Kong_residents
Chinese nationality law has applied in Hong Kong since the handover on 1 July 1997. Hong Kong BDTC status ceased to exist and cannot be regained. An interpretation for implementing PRC nationality law for Hong Kong was presented at the Nineteenth Session of the Standing Committee of the Eighth National People’s Congress on 15 May 1996, a year prior to the Hong Kong handover and came into effect on 1 July 1997. The explanations concerning the implementation of the nationality of Hong Kong citizens is that Hong Kong citizens of Chinese descent are Chinese nationals whether or not they have acquired other foreign citizenship(s). Where such Chinese citizens resident in Hong Kong undergo a change of citizenship (e.g. in accordance with Article 9 of the Nationality Law, which provides that a person who becomes settled in a foreign country and acquires foreign citizenship loses his or her Chinese citizenship – Hong Kong is not recognised as foreign territory, before or after 1 July 1997), this must be declared to immigration authorities to be recognised under Chinese nationality law. Forms British nationality acquired in Hong Kong (including BN(O) and under the British Nationality Selection Scheme are specifically not recognised as a change of nationality (as they did not occur after the person became settled in a foreign country). Therefore, a Hong Kong resident who had acquired British or foreign citizenship would still be recognised as a Chinese citizen after 1 July 1997 (effectively becoming a dual national except in China (including Hong Kong)), but if that person undergoes a change of nationality under Chinese nationality law and declares the change of nationality to immigration authorities, they would no longer be recognised as a Chinese citizen.
This is reflected in the position the Hong Kong Immigration Department currently has on Hong Kong residents (including former residents) of Chinese nationality who were Hong Kong permanent residents immediately before 1 July 1997 and hold foreign passports. Those who were permanent residents before the Handover continue to enjoy right of abode in Hong Kong whether they have remained overseas for long time or hold foreign nationality. They however, will not enjoy foreign consular protection in Hong Kong as long as they do not declare a change of nationality to the Immigration Department [1]
She did not stay in Hong Kong, has lived in the Philippines and has had Filipino citizenship for a long time I would assume, and she is probably not directly of Chinese descent, possibly Filipino-Chinese but that does not really count anymore I would think.
You are correct. Being born in Hong Kong when she was born was like being born in London, not in China. Hardly the enemy. That connection is so loose that the rope has unraveled and is now about MRP’s neck looking a lot like a noose.
Jus sanguini ang Philippines, MRP, citizenship by blood unlike the US na jus soli, citizenship by birthplace….you are out of order again, as usual
A child of a Filipina born in the USA can have both Filipino and American citizenships, because ius sanguinis bestows one and ius solis the other. Therefore Korina could have had Commonwealth citizenship when she was born in 1962, and Filipino citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality_law_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China#Birth_in_Hong_Kong_or_Macau_to_parents_of_Chinese_descent
An alternate form of jus soli applies to any persons of Chinese descent who were born in Hong Kong or Macau. The Explanations of Some Questions by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress Concerning the Implementation of the Nationality Law of the People’s Republic of China in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, a supplement nationality law document applicable only to Hong Kong residents, states that any Hong Kong resident who “is of Chinese descent and was born in the Chinese territories (including Hong Kong)”, before or after the Handover, is a Chinese national with right of abode in Hong Kong.[2] Same provision with exact same wordings also exists in the Explanations of Some Questions by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress Concerning the Implementation of the Nationality Law of the People’s Republic of China in the Macau Special Administrative Region, its equivalent of Macau.[3] In practice, many overseas Chinese, who are of “Chinese descent”, are not Chinese nationals, so this provision effectively bestowed Chinese nationality on any child who is of Chinese descent and was born in Hong Kong or Macau regardless of the nationalities of his parents, in addition to the Right of Abode (ROA) in Hong Kong or Macau.
Now after 1997, the Chinese made all who were of Chinese descent and born in HK into Chinese nationals. But I doubt that Korina would be considered to be of Chinese descent.
Sanchez does not sound Chinese, OK Korina looks a bit Filipino-Chinese, but I even doubt that her mother was a real Chinese if ever. And even if she was a Cantonese, Korina chose to stay in the Philippines, just like Co Juang Co who was a Fujianese… Anti-Chinese stuff is typical Marcos loyalist propaganda, finally what matters is loyalty to the country, Andrew Lim and NHerrera are just as Filipino as most, maybe even more?
OT Irineo in the blog Money Matters, caliphman is asking that you might know a European economist who can aply the lessons learned from the EEC as applied to the Philippines (APEC ….ASean integrration) He mentioned Apec ako na nagdagdag ng Asean. kindly read the comment in money matters.
Maybe you should check it out before slandering someone.
MRP is no longer amusing.
What is amusing is only Ireneo knows this. The rest of the Filipinos do not. So, they still think she’s a foreigner. Just like Binay still guilty absence of facts and evidences.
As to Grce Poe, she is still a Filipino. To others who peels onions, technically, she is an American. That is why majority of Filipios still root for Grace Poe in the absence of knowledge.
MRP – “So, they think she’s (meaning Korina) a foreigner”
To my knowledge, only you, MRP, thinks so.
As to Binay, you are forgetting that the Ombudsman thinks he is guilty, too, or at least should be charged, and is just waiting for Binay to cease being the VP before filing the charges at the Sandigan. IMHO, the VP does not enjoy immunity from suits, being just a spare tire whose only job (as of now, aside from vigorously campaigning since July 1, 2010) is to wait for the President to cease breathing or be permanently incapacitated, etc..so he can be take advantage of the rule on succession.
You are defending anyone who is against PNOY’s annointed one, me thinks….anyone, just anybody but Mar who is closely identified with President Aquino, the nemesis of Marcos, so you never cease attacking Korina or Mamasapano, or the Luneta bus hostage tragedy, or the possibly sabotage work in NAIA laglag bala controversy, all aimed at embarrassing this Administration and by extension, Mar and the Daang Matuwid.
Just like what the trolls do.
Irineo was the only one who challenged you,that doesn’t mean that he us the only one who thinks you are bullshitting us,next time provide complete evidential attachments like birth certificates,citizenship laws from Uk,China and the Philippines.Next time back up your mouth with evidence not just affidavits..affidavits are not evidence mr affiant.
ok so there you go Mary is always there to challenge you.
the last time you got a flat tire was when you said I think therefore I am not Filipino…Man you are no longer thinking so what are you?
POINT WELL TAKEN, Joe! It could not be more explicitly and articulately expressed ! Was she not a student at BOSTON COLLEGE – a JESUIT college?
Leni Robredo nailed it! It is a MORAL ISSUE – a grace-less ‘BALIMBING’ to the core!
Sent from my iPad
>
Thanks lissabjork. I appreciate the feedback.
Joe – admire your writings and your love for adopted country. I’m not a Poe supporter. Robredo clearly is the better individual (as was her late husband).
However, there is a reason why patriotic Filipino-Americans (including myself) applied for US citizenship then reclaimed Philippine citizenship when the law changed. We love BOTH our native Philippines and our adopted America. Just as you, Joe, love both countries.
Yes, and it astounds me that Grace Poe does not make that point. I suppose she can’t, because of the position she is trying to get.
Sorry for auto spell. It’s Robredo, of course. Keep writing, Joe. You are doing a great service to the country, to Dr Jose Rizal’s “Mi Patria Adorada.”
Will do. I corrected your typo, a service we provide for people who make the blog editor happy. 🙂
In my view the renunciation component in agreeing to become a citizen of another country mainly revolves around rights and responsibility for the new country and not really about turning your back on your former country per se. To comply with the procedure that goes with the process binding your self as a citizen of a new country maybe one thing and to remain enamored and still emotionally attached to your former country is another thing. However I don’t see it as concrete basis of one’s immoral tendency or even a basis to judge people of impropriety. One can internally possess or emotionally feel both condition at the same time and I don’t see anything morally wrong with it. A lot of people become citizens of a new country, adhere loyalty and express love to it but maintains the same emotional feelings with their former country. A positive feelings cannot automatically be morally wrong.
Unlike a failed marriage that end up in divorce, becoming a new citizen of another country most often are the result of necessity and not necessarily of mistake.
The citizenship issue on Grace Poe is best tackled on the aspect of legality because it is on that aspect where her right to run for public office basically depend. Did she or didn’t she meet the legal requirements? Is she a natural-born citizen or not? That’s all there is to it.
Well, at least, that’s the ‘citizenship’ side of the topic. Then there is the character, capability and other factors that can be cited as valid arguments against Grace Poe running for president. It is also in that area where the issue of morality is best suited to include for discussion. 🎭
You are a discipline rationalist, but as you know, moral standards are not always rational, or we would have divorce in the Philippines. The legal issues are cut and dried and will be determined by the official referees. The moral issue is not, and Grace Poe has not handled the issue well, and basically set it up as an allegiance issue by never claiming real allegiance or love for the United States. So that makes her oath-taking suspect. Honesty, trust. Those moral issues will be decided at the ballot box.
And after the school was over
And I moved to the other side
I found another country
But I never lost my pride
Graham Nash – Military Madness
So long as pride, emotion, cultural stickiness…do not overide loyalty.
This is not off topic. It is the way we keep ourselves centered in the Philippines.
even if it was off topic,you are the blog owner,this is your house.
Joe,
It doesn’t play for me, though I can see the title/still shot. Is this Wowowee? Please tell me that show’s back. The formula of having poor kids cry on nat’l tv, who’re then given money, then cue happy song and girls in skimpy outfits gyrate suggestively whilst pushing the poor (now happy) kids off stage– that was just genius. Like Hunger Games, but w/out the games.
Willie Re illame keeps on getting in trouble he keeps on miving from network to network.
Now he is on GMA network the title of the shiw changed spelling
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/535674/showbiz/chikaminute/willie-revillame-teases-more-surprises-for-wowowin
No, this is X-Factor in the UK, their equivalent to American Idol or the Voice, and the four Filipino sisters knock down the house every time they sing, each girl able to belt, with excellent showmanship. Sorry you don’t like it, but we all have our own tastes, I suppose, and there is a certain home-town thrill when Filipinos do best what they do best on stage, have fun and make people cheer.
I would add that the judges, all successful professionals in the business, rave about the girls. You saw the standing ovation?
Willie R. is a perverted dude in my book, about 60 years behind the times with his sexist and racist remarks (doing Chinese speech as a joke). His bit with the kid was cruel, pushing him to tears.
ps, The dancer in the yellow suit is me. They flew me over just for the show. It was exhausting but a nice change of pace from blogging.
LOL! You dance goot, Joe!
🙂 The spin move with the back kick is not as easy as it looks.
I meant that the blog is your house,good thing that they flew you over just to get away from it all.You do dance goot.
Yes, well, in truth, I have become a Filipino fan, a member of the club. I follow Gilas, enjoy women’s volleyball and college hoops, cheer for Olympic skater Michael Christian Martinez and the other youngsters practicing at the rink at Mall of Asia, am smitten by Amy Vachal, enjoy the totally different style of Fourth Impact. I catch every Pacquiao fight and even enjoy it when he is clubbing Americans. I don’t watch beauty contests, though. It is too much a cattle drive for me; still, I like watching Security Bank commercials. I don’t like noontime television shows because they are too noisy and judgmental. But the Philippines does one thing exceptionally well, entertain, and I’m into it.
Very glad that you are entertained.
Joe, got it. I didn’t say I didn’t like it, it doesn’t play– when I attempt to play, I get this “the uploader has not made this video available in your country” (I think because of copyright issues).
karl, thanks for the update on Wowowillie– I remember rumors of him was that he was banging not only his co-hosts, but also the dancers… hence his popularity then. As Joe pointed, there was definitely an unintended sick satirical quality to the show (but I think one had to view w/ Western eyes,
because around the mid-2000’s, had Wowowillie been nominated for sainthood, I wouldn’t have been surprised had he become the patron saint of the poor over there– hence genius).
Truly it is a moral issue. I wonder how the camp of Ms. Poe will react to the statements made in this blog. I hope the moral dimension of the citizenship issue of Ms. Poe will be explored fully in the coming days so people will be able to judge for themselves if Ms. Poe rightfully deserve to be our next President. We all know that she is leading the survey. but we don’t really know the real Ms. Poe because of her very limited stint in government and the legislature. At least her Father, Fernando Poe has been in the movies in decades and his service and compassion to the people in show biz is a legend. But then, we still can’t accept him to be President of our country at that time. But Ms. Poe is still a mystery to me. Who is the real Grace Poe? Does she really believe she can do a better job than Roxas? How does she intend to inspire the bureaucracy to get things done? How would she deal with the judiciary and legislature amidst the wheeling and dealing /politicking? Give us the how’s please and not just motherhood statements. I call on the rich and famous to ask these hard questions before giving your campaign contributions. For the love of God and country so munch is at stake in this elections!
Very well put, Donna. I’d add, enough of the attacks on the Aquino Administration. What, specifically, do YOU have for us, Senator Poe?
So much is at stake….please let’s not go back to the dark ages of governance…
What does Grace Poe and Leni Robredo have in common? PNoy.
Both were recruited by the President on the assumption that they share his vision of good governance and included the two in his vision to pursue and improve his plans and programs beyond the term of his watch.
However, as we now know, PNoy was just 50% correct on his prognostication in recruiting the two. It turns out, he got the sincere and original consent of Leni by the fact that her husband, Jesse, is a party-mate. On Grace Poe’s part, not being a member of the President’s party (Liberal party), she never really intended to create a real partnership with PNoy. “Daang Matuwid” is not her cup of tea. And rightly so because even before he recruited her to serve under his administration, she already has a set of people from his late father’s campaign group that are already in place in case she want to have her own team. Which she did eventually.
I don’t know what PNoy is thinking right now. But I’m sure there is regret and a tinge of guilty conscience for causing a dilemma on the political environment today. All the while the administration was focus on Jojo Binay as the party’s competition in 2016. The emergence of Grace Poe has made the contest more difficult and beyond their control. 👀
If the SC, like the SET, will vote in favor of Poe, they will make possible a foreigner foundling to be senator or President of the Philippines. A PRECEDENT will be established !!!
goodbye, jus sanguinis !!
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Mary, the SET verdict was a political decision and not a legal one. Note that all the legal eagles voted to disqualify. It was a case between those who know the law… and those who do not know the law but craft the law… and have a protective sentiment for a fellow senator. Still, anything can happen.
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I could not believe that Bam, who could have given the swing vote to make it 5-4 for DQ did not deliver…is there a justification like to belie the Poe accusation of an LP harassment?
Perhaps he will issue a statement on it.
Hi Joe
A merry Xmas to your & your family there in the Philippines.. I am ignorant about the Philippines but learning and learning a lot from your blog.
I still do not understand the anger, venom & sheer bloody mindedness that comes up on the blog whenever the subject is Grace Poe. I have tried to learn more and come to an informed opinion. In part this is because politics is a deep long term passion of mine. In part this is because my Philippina lady wants to vote for Grace Poe for president. She also wants to vote ( wait for it !!! ) for Lennie Robredo as Vice president.Naturally she is Bicolano from Naga !!! And my attitude to this is “Go for it girl !!”
Anyway today I have just read “Leni Robredo vs Grace Poe” the translation posted by you on November 14, 2015 of Irineo B R Salazar. I wish I had found it earlier. It has crystalised my own thinking as an Australian observer about politics and law in the Philippines.
And here are the main elements of my thinking…
1 Politicians ( ordinary fallible humans ) make laws in the Philippines, just like Australia and the USA. Laws are frequently made by politicians at the behest of vested powerful interests. That is why politicians are so frequently held in contempt especially here in Australia. Contempt serves to remind them of their true place in society. Here they all have to earn respect and trust.
2 Sometimes laws are passed by politicians in Philippines ( and in Australia & the USA ) that are immoral. Sometimes those laws are in conflict with a sensible caring & rational approach to life and people. A very clear and outstanding current example in the Philippines is the lack of any divorce law.
( A personal aside here : my Philippine lady and I will be marrying here in Australia next year under a much more rational, sensible & dare I say ‘caring’ Australian family law act. Why ? Because I have no respect for the Philippines version. It is imhumane; it is immoral !! And I read recently that a poll showed 60% of the Philippino people want sensible caring & rational new divorce law. Despite the opposition by the Catholic Church and it’s vested interests. )
3 : When politicians laws are in conflict with caring, with morality, with common sense, most folks affected just ignore these paper laws. That is my experience in Australia. And I observe the same process in the Philippines. Thus many, many Philippino people never legally ‘get married’ as such. They live together and have children and are married in their hearts. But the formal law is given the flick. This approach is cheaper and avoids all the expensive legal pitfalls of the corrupt politicians ‘annulment law’.
Another interesting & major example is ‘road traffic law’ in the Philippines. The paper version of the politicians is ignored by everybody. The unwritten version is known by everyone and adhered to by everyone as I have seen living in Quiappo in Manila.
4 :There are laws made by politicians in the Philippines about who is a citizen and who is not and cannot be elected to the congress or elected as President. Grace Poe is currently entangled in these laws. But can you imagine a poor fisherman from Barcelonito in Camerines Sur, or a pagan Igorot voter in Bontoc province, or a Muslim peasant farmer on Pulo Jolo, really worrying about such matters ? Nah, never ! As always these ‘distraction’ laws were made to preserve the interests of the wealthy & powerful.
5 : Irineo B R Salazar ( and you in your comments) make the claim that Grace Poe is ‘immoral’ because earlier in her life she became an American citizen and renounced her Philippino citizenship. Duh ? Are you both for real or playing politics here ? Poe was ‘natural born’ in the Philippines to Philippino parents who left her as a new born baby in a Catholic church after which the clergy organised for her to be adopted. ( They did something good then – great !! But will someone please, please give me a definition of ‘un-natural born” )
She later in life lived in the USA and was subject it’s at times rather bizarre laws. Let me tell you that one of the truly bizarre laws is that citizenship law and the oath that folks are supposed to swear. Once again made by politicians at the behest of vested powerful interests. Australians would say “Over the top bullshit folks” !
Grace Poe may have faults as a politician. I really don’t know as I am still getting to the bottom of why you dislike her Joe when once you thought she had a halo round her head. And yes you did give me 3 brief sentences of reasons in your email, but I like to check the facts and make up my own mind. I will get there one day.
But my frank opinion about her standing for president is drop all the legal disqualification nonesense. The ‘politicians laws’ on this are not moral. And some of your folks have your knickers completely tied in knots. Let her run. Let her make her case for election.Let her show to the Philippino people her strengths and weaknesses; and show her true moral character in public. Then let the people decide. That’s a democracy Joe & Irineo.
Bill in Oz
Seasons’s greetings to you, Bill. Thanks for the good wishes.
Laws express the morality that is in place, I think, and there is no question that Philippine morality is Catholic and behind international conventions. So the laws, too, are outdated. Plus, here is a cultural penchant to argue the legalistic details rather than the overarching principles, so some decisions, like those on the Poe case, get trivial.
I’m glad you’ve read a few of my pieces on Poe so I don’t have to restate the arguments. I think she is an opportunist not a patriot, so that is as simple as I can explain it. Her whole bearing is political and not service and that results in her operating under the launch pad of tearing down the current administration to lift herself up. It’s what politicians do, I suppose, so I shouldn’t be so concerned about that. But her decisions, to me, reflect very poor judgment and an absolute lack of any knowledge about what government does or is doing. It is simplistic slogan-mongering devoid of any sense.
I hope that there are presidential debates. So far, in the few shared forums where she and Roxas have shared the same stage, she comes across as very shallow against Roxas’ deep knowledge.
Joe you write ” Laws express the morality that is in place, I think, and there is no question that Philippine morality is Catholic and behind international conventions. So the laws, too, are outdated.”
I disagree with you Joe. From what I have observed Filippino morality and moral standards are pretty much the same as Oz. Overwhelmingly I see ordinary filippinos being honest, being fair, being gentle, and not a copper to enforce a law anywhere in sight. ( And incidentally I see far less boozing and far less smoking in Manila than in Oz. )
Now the laws are something else. I don’t think most of them are particularly ” catholic”. The Philippino ” family code ” law seems to be inspired by old fashioned spanish mores from the 1850-60’s. And Spain has changed much since those days and it’s mores…
In general though the laws are words written by politicians for them & their friends in the Filipino elite…And for the overwhelming majority of Filipino people largely irrelevant…
Well, perhaps. The morality here I’d think is not so much like Oz, as here it is a concoction of tribal lore, superstition, Catholicism, accepted corruption and cheating on the laws (riding a motorcycle without a helmet), indolence, expedience, necessity and denial. I have a hard time relating that to the Aussie penchant for order and reason, no matter if there are a few drunks and bums lying around. We need to sort out the exceptions from the mainstream. I do agree that laws are written to favor the elite here, but that is starting to break down.
Add warmth and humor and generosity, also self-involvement and hard-headed justifications. little concept of time or looking forward; spontaneous, reactive. Envy
There is a lot going on here.
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1. Does Philippine law recognize divorce?
2. Can one find religious images and icons in Aussie government offices?
3. Do Aussie politicians buy votes? Do citizens sell votes?
4. Are Aussie politicians corrupt? Has any Aussie politician stolen a billion?
5. Is pork barrel in Oz diverted to private accounts of politicians and NGOs?
6. Do Aussies bribe policemen?
7. Are there beggars in Aussie streets?
8. Are there wholesale squatters in Aussie cities?
9. Are kickbacks paid in Aussie government contracts?
10. Have you heard of any substandard work performed under government contracts?
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Hi Edgar
I don’t think it’s appropriate to this discussion to reply in detail to each of your questions. In general the answer is No…
But in 2013 the Labor government of NSW lost office in the state election because of significant corruption and kickbacks..Those politicians involved are no longer in power nor leading the Labor party. And they have been investigated by the NSW Independent Commission against Corruption ( ICAC ). From memory 2 of the ministers are facing court.
That reflects a very Australian cultural habit of not trusting politicians and at elections kicking them very hard in the arse whenever needed. As a consequence we have had 5 prime ministers in the past 8 years: Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Abbot & Turnbull. As the leaders of our political parties frequently are not ‘good quality’, this political churn process does have the benefit of getting rid of the poor and untrusted, ones relatively quickly. Recently we seem to have settled on Turnbull as leader who seems to have learned the lessons of his predecessors eviction from office and power. So maybe things will settle down now.
I notice that in the Philippines you are usually stuck with a president for 6 years no matter how poor they are..And that even a good one cannot run for election again.
All in all that does not give good incentive to perform.
Bill In Oz
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Thank you for confirming the point that “Filippino morality and moral standards are
pretty muchNOT the same as Oz.”*****
Hi Edgar, please do not put words in my mouth. Even if I wished to ( now ) agree with you it leaves a sour taste, Ok.
As it happens I still do not agree with you. I made my remark about Philippino moral statdards based on my own personal experiences living in Manila the past 7 weeks. I have been treated nearly always with honesty, courtesy and gentleness. I’d like to think that is similar period in Oz you would be treated in the same way.
And yes I am aware of the poverty, the beggars & the homeless sleeping on cardboard on the streets at night. I am aware of the over crowding and th sheer press of humanity trying to earn a a semi decent living because of lack of enough decent jobs. I am aware of all the people in jobs who work 11 & 12 shifts because if they only worked a standard 8 hours they would be sacked.
And I have read about VP Binay and the misappropriation of public money by him & his family in the past couple of decades.
I am aware of this disconnect. I think it crucial to separate out these 2 aspects. Surely you agree ?
Bill in Oz
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Bill in Oz,
Thanks.
It is very difficult to counter general statements like the one you made.
To counter a general statement, one has to go to specifics. But it will not do to cite just one specific exception to disprove a general statement. One must cite at least a handful. Which is what I did.
I am sorry to use your feedback to return serve on your general claim. I am also sorry that you do not acknowledge your mis-impression. But I am glad that you persist in maintaining that good impression of Philippians. (You will excuse the small joke; Steve Harvey deserves to be remembered up to the New Year.)
As to my credentials on this issue: I lived in the Philippines for over 40 years and have lived in Oz for over 20 years. So just based on the criteria of duration and exposure, I could claim familiarity, if not intimacy, with the two cultures.
Wittgenstein said, “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” In this case, I know whereof I speak.
I totally agree with you that (some, if not most) Filipinos are honest, courteous and gentle.
May I suggest a tipple to remove that sour taste. I truly am sorry… but in this society we try to hew as close to the truth as possible. It is our way of honoring it… and each other.
Remember it is not you we are discussing here but ideas. And ideas may be valid or invalid… or unrelated to what is being discussed. Also, we may arrive at a consensus… or not. What is important (to me at least) is that we have made our points and, in the exchange, the limits of our consciousness have risen. We are able to see farther and deeper — and clearer.
*****
Thank you Edgar ! I agree “we have made our points and, in the exchange, the limits of our consciousness have risen. We are able to see farther and deeper — and clearer.”
Bill in Oz
Hi, Bill in Oz
You addressed your questions and opinions to Joe, but may I join in? I will be basing my answer on published legal opinions of 3 SET members who are currently Supreme Court associate justices, as well as the published decisions of the Commission on Election (Comelec) when they ruled to disqualify Poe.
In our country, and I suppose in the US, Australia and in other countries as well, we have such a thing as the fundamental law of the land – the constitution, on which all treaties, laws – local or international, enacted and soon to be legislated must conform to. And that Philippine Constitution specifically stated that citizenship must be based on jus sanguini rule – citizenship by blood and not jus soli – citizenship by soil or the place where one is born or found (in the case of foundlings). Since a blood line cannot be proven for foundlings, citizenship for them were not provided by the said constitution and left it to legislators to enact laws that would implement the international laws to prevent statelessness. At most what could be granted to the foundlings were plain Filipino citizenship (presumed naturalized by existing international treaties), not natural born citizenship which is a requirement set by the constitution for those wishing to be government officials. As we speak, no such legislation has been enacted by the past and present Congress that would initiate the legislated awarding of citizenship to all foundlings. Even the foundling Senator Poe has not introduced that law, a belated action she did in August, 2015 was just to rename a Certificate of Live Birth for foundlings, adding the phrase with Unknown Parents. A natural born citizen is defind in the constitution as someone who is a citizenship at birth (born to Filipino citizens) without having to do anything to perfect such citizenship.
To accommodate Poe, we need to amend the Philippine Constitution and it is a little late on the day to do that. Otherwise, if we let her run, she will be violating our fundamental law of the land. Another way is to find at least her biological mother so she can elect her Filipino citizenship if her biological father turned out to be non Filipino.. For that, a legally accepted DNA match must be found. I do sincerely wish her luck in finding her biological parents.
You say drop all disqualification cases against Poe. I say if we do that, we will be a nation ignoring the law, a bad precedent, a nation of law and order must be adhered to to prevent lawlessness and chaos. Ignorance of law excuses no one, the law maybe harsh but it is the law…no ifs, no buts, no exeption, no exemption.
This is a Filipina expressing her opinion, the SC will rule on this matter soon, I will be disappointed if they rule against the Comelec ruling, but will have no choice but to accept it.
I am an American retired to the Philippines, and I don’t pay much attention to National politics, since I don’t vote and figuring that it is all so corrupt as to render matters of principle moot, plus little philosophical difference between parties. But my understanding of international law is that there is no conflict in being a citizen of multiple countries. Various countries will pass laws requiring exclusive allegiance or penalizing dual citizenship (as has been done in the Philippines) but those laws have little meaning and are generally been struck down when challenged in Supreme Courts.
As far as a blood-based test for special citizenship standing – that would seem to create more problems than it solves. How many people do not have the genetic heritage they claim?
BTW, Joe, have you done an expose on vote-buying in the Philippines?
Then let’s wait for the SC and find out if it would struck down the provisions of the constitution, in effect, amending it all by themselves.
As for those people who do not have the genetic heritage that they claim, I say, thank God not many of them are running for the Philippine presidency. This particular candidate’s bloodline is being raised because she is a an establshed foundling with unknown parents.
If the Philippine constitution and the SC allows a foundling that could have been of Russian or a mainland China’s descendant brought here for some evil purposes, who are we to complain? It sucks to high heavens but what can we do?
Interpreting the constitution is not amending it.
Interpreting it in a diiferent way other than what the framers intended is amending. Case in point – this matter on foundlings….there are transcripts of the 1934 Constitutional Convention who framed the 1935 Constitution, the one applicable to Sen. Poe. Those are very clear as per the published opinion of SC Associate Justice Arturu Brion.
What the founders intended is of minimal legal consequence. It is what the constitution says that matters – and many things that sound reasonable at first blush do not hold up to rigorous examination. Our ethos regarding what is legally permissible discrimination changes over time. This process affects the implementation of any constitution, but is normal and natural for constitutions and other laws. I personally think discrimination against foundlings is offensive and a matter of civil rights and should be justifiably disallowed. And I have no personal opinion on Grace Po.
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“What the founders intended is of minimal legal consequence. It is what the constitution says that matters…”
There are several ways of interpreting a Constitution. The most common are:
o Original intent – what the authors meant
o Textualism – what the text says
o Living tree – what is relevant in today’s world
Ron seems to be saying that only the latter two ways matter. However, to say that original intent is “of minimal legal consequence” is untenable. It will be noted that the original exchanges in the proceedings of the Constitutional conventions are often quoted in judicial decisions.
On her side, Mary Grace is inveighing against the overreach in judicial activism.
*****
Edgar, before ending up in IT in Oz,were you a lawyer in Pinas?
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Sorry, no. At one time, I had visions of being Clarence Darrow. I also had yearnings to be a healing mystic… and a simple fisherman.
*****
Don’t be sorry,we all have our dreams. 😃😃
Re your 3rd, my take is is that a constitution is a living document, not an edict etched in stone, if it is no longer relevant in today’s world we need to amend it, and yes, interpreting it in ways other than what the framers intended is overreaching, amending it all by themselves, I now learned it as judicial activism, thank you sir edgar..the procedures to amend it are also set in the document itself. The 1935 constitution was silent on foundlings’ citizenship, it left it to congress to tackle the same, congress failed to do it, the 1987 Constitution did not change the jus sanguini rule set by the previous ones.
The SC of today will play a very crucial role in the coming election. How they will decide will determine if confusion will abound if ever Poe’s name or even that of Duterte’s will still be in the May, 2016 official ballots, which will be a controversial and divisive factor come June, 2016 and beyond, I truly hope the will realize this and act accordingly for the sake of the nation’s stability.
Welcome to the blog, Ron. I think there are sincere efforts underway to clean-up Philippine politics, and not all are corrupt, as we see if we follow Leni Robredo and the many, many government officials who are like her. International law is argued by those who want Senator Poe to run, and national law is argued by those who don’t. They indeed differ. The Supreme Court will make the decision as to which is operative in the nation when they rule on Poe disqualification cases in a few weeks. Similarly, some internationally recognized laws (divorce) have not reached the Philippines. The laws are what they are, rules put in place by politicians with vested interests behind their thinking. Rather the way democracy is played around the world.
I don’t recall doing a blog on vote buying, which is very prominent and almost “accepted” as a part of the election process in outlying communities. I did do an article about a scam of some sorts that visited my local area. Could be massive vote buying. Could be something else. https://joeam.com/2014/03/24/the-2016-election-is-already-compromised/
I have been thinking of writing an article about vote-buying in the third world – for an American audience. Is there a way to send you a private message about this? And I think there is more vote-buying in the cities than you imagine – among the less affluent.
See the “Contact Us” tab for where to direct correspondence. I don’t doubt that vote-buying is rampant in cities, too.
Ron Z,
This about how local government units resort to loan sharks to fund campaigns.
http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/16412-loan-sharks-fund-election-campaigns,-lgus
the article on sister cities can be indirectly about vote buying,depending on the jumper. (one who jumps into conclusions)
Ah, yes. thanks. My mind blurs after a while. I forget what I’ve written.
Can you give me the link to the article on sister cities?
A good way to prowl the site and its 800+ blogs is to go to the home page and use the search function. Type in “sister cities” or other queries, and the system will fish the relevant articles out.
“But can you imagine a poor fisherman from Barcelonito in Camerines Sur, or a pagan Igorot voter in Bontoc province, or a Muslim peasant farmer on Pulo Jolo, really worrying about such matters ? ”
Precisely, that’s the very reason why Disqualification Cases were filed in the appropriate courts so that those who are experts on the constitution and the law can debate on the merits of the case based on evidences submitted by each opposing parties. If we live the decision making on citizens like you mentioned above, how can the right one be arrived at that would conform with the constitution and existing laws? That’s what courts are for, to prevent anarchy and chaos for who knows what would happen when thousands with opposing views and with violent tendencies clash at the streets? An SC decision must be arrived at that ought to be respected by everyone. If we let the voters decide on whether Poe is qualified to run or not, we might as well do away with all laws, the courts rules and procedures and let the people decide on each and every cases under the sun. Uninformed choices could be made, choices based on emotion, sympathy or popularity. Tyranny of numbers without due process would reign. We are far too poltically matured to agree to that eventuality, that of returning to the days of cavemen and uncivilized way of violently sorting out differences of opinions.
The Philippine constitution was framed by experts, ratified by the majority of the Filipinos, let it rule.
Ah, Mary, you write with an apparent emotion but with logic, more often than not I share. When I see the notification of your post — upper right hand corner of the Blog screen — I invariably check what you have to say, unless your post notification goes past, replaced by others (Reference: your posts with the following date-time stamps — December 26, 2015 at 7:02 pm; December 26, 2015 at 9:13 pm; December 26, 2015 at 8:54 pm).
Happy Sunday to you.
Wow, coming from you, sir NH, those words truly warm the heart. Your saying that you share my sentiments, more often than not, inspires me. I thank you.
Happy Sunday to you, too.
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I concur. Mary possesses logic of the heart which she supports with the logic of the mind.
The logic of the heart is gifted to those who are pure in heart, unshadowed by fear, greed or ignorance.
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”
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BTW, Mr. Engineer, you can change your subscription to the blog to receive all comments.
1. Log in to WordPress.
2. Select the “Reader” tab. (This is the default.)
3. Press the “Manage” button across “Followed Sites” on the left-hand menu.
4. Click on the right arrow (>) before “The Society of Honor by Joe America.”
5. Set the switch “On” for both “Emails for new posts” and “Emails for new comments.”
6. Bob’s our uncle.
*****
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Be forewarned:
1. Your inbox will be flooded.
2. You will have to clear your trashbox every other day.
3. There is no way of deselecting comments made by one “edgar lores”.
*****
Thanks for the tip edgar. But this scares me —
There is no way of deselecting comments made by one “edgar lores”.
Hahaha. 🙂
Again, my Holiday Greetings to you and family!
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And the best of the New Year to you and the family, NHerrera.
*****
My cup runneth over today, the guru himself and the venerable engineer, both with wisdom and experience, saying those things! What more can a humble commenter wish for?
My sincere thanks, sir edgar.
Decide – influence. Even when you do not have the power to decide, you still have the power or duty to influence. Every text, even the most precise law, has room for interpretation, SC judges make their individual interpretation based on many factors, your potential influence by supporting or opposing an alternative being one of them.
Truth does not exist, only probability of truth exists. What is the probability that foreign parents travel to the Philippines to give birth and abandon their new-born?
In a comment above you mention: “… foundling that could have been of Russian or a mainland China’s descendant brought here for some evil purposes.” But planting a mole 40 years in advance? Assuring it will be adopted by influential parents? Assuring it will be loyal to the country of its natural parents? Isn’t money of a sympathetic (Russian or) Chinese descendant a much more likely method to get a favorable president in office?
Interesting thing about probability. In a lotto where one picks five digits out of 42 (that is 1, 2, 3, …, 41, 42) — repeated digits allowed — the chance of winning with one ticket is one in 130 million. Yet there is a winner, not necessarily in the immediate draw.
I do not play the Lotto, but the Love of my Life prods me when we are at the mall, using the birthdate of her favorite grandson. So what is the price of a Coke to get that loving smile on my wife?
HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family, josephivo.
@ Nherrera re lotto. Its 6 nbrs to win not 5. Think it’s just yr typo. For lotto 42 probably is 1 out of 135 mm. Guess u rounded it to 130mm. If we give it an average of a winner per month, that means sales of 135 mm tickets month. At 20 peso per ticket that means php2.7 billion. Monthly and they pay out want? Say 100 mm. Means 2.6 billion pesos for just one game. What a cash cow. Nherrera what is the probability if we play the game 5+ a floating nmbr?
Haha, joseph, I usually repeat that Russian and Mainland foundling etc, etc possiblity to emphasize the danger of setting a precedent. You might have read that caliphman reacted once by ridiculing me saying that even a monster from other planets is acceptable to him if it is within the logic espoused by his favorite SC ex chief Panganiban, Tan and other legal luminaries published in their respective columns.
Undaunted, I often repeat that post with a caveat that I am an incurable spy thriller enthusiast. I have read that in a spy novel. I was pleasantly surprised and amazed that an SC associate justice-member of the SET opined in his published dissenting opinion a vriance of my wild imagination post saying what if two other foundlings were found in NCR around the time Poe was found in Jaro, Iloilo church, one a dark skined obviously black infant and another a blue eyed blond causcasian, then whatever decision that favors Poe will also be applicable to those 2 and to all other foundlings from hereon, a clear violation of the constitution and the jus sanguini rule that it endorsed.
My point is about the danger of setting a precedent that will have a far reaching consequence 50 or 100 years from now, a precedent that violated the exact and specific provision of the existing constitution. We may not remain a small and uninteresting country in the future, politics and economy areound the world are shifting, who knows, years from now we could be a major oil producer of the world, and since we are geographically located in the center of the Pacific, other parts of the communitst world will be interested enough to control us by way of a puppet government official, not necessarily president, so they can have a say in a local or national governance. Buying politicians is not that reliable, look at GMA and Estrada, or Binay, they may have a change of heart in one of their lucid moments and suddenly wake up that the country is more important, that they have enough mney and power to defy them…but a foundling indoctrinated from birth and trained with underhand techniques to undermine the host country is a surer bet. Perhaps, the interested country will utilize both method, if they are serious and interested enough.
Anyways, the constitution is specific and clear enough in its provisions as to the qualifications of would be governemnt officials. Whatever reasons the framers had in setting jus sanguini principle as the basis fro determining citizenship, the reality is that, it is provided there, and we have to abide by it.
I’m not anti-foundlings, they should be given opportunities to better themselves, the way
Poe was given the chance. My only point against the current legal issue against her is that we need to follow the law, and the SC is the best institution to make sure that we do. I just hope that SC realizes that.
Forget 50 or 100 years from now. What will jus sanguini mean by then? Designer babies will be the rule, not the exception, DNA printers are being developed now, 3 parents instead of 2 already a reality… We are breaking through our biologically determined limits. What about cyborg engineering, what about engineering of non-organic intelligence? Will only “mental and physical limited”, old fashioned humans with 2 natural parent be allowed to rule in the Philippines by then?
“If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.” GPL looks like a Filipina (with some Chinese blood as10% of the Philippine gen pool is Chinese, this is more than likely. – Filipinas more attracted to foreign fathers for their children? -), she moves in politics as a Filipina, under Chiz guidance or not, and she certainly sounds like a Filipina. So the odds are that she is Filipina. But I agree, common sense and the law are not always well aligned with law makers too busy doing other stuff and seldom adjusting existing laws to reflect new realities – does the SC has a role here? –
“… but a foundling indoctrinated from birth and trained with underhand techniques to undermine the host country is a surer bet.” People get indoctrinated via education, not blood. Does this mean that Fernando Poe and Susan Roces are proven Chinese provocateurs? Why should it be an issue now when it was not in 2004?
On the other hand, I agree that GPL played her cards wrongly, lack of openness from the start, some sloppy maneuvers, hidden agendas (?)…
You’re probably right, 50 or 100 years from now those things could be a reality. Hopefully, by then a constitution will still be in place, amended or not. For now, we have to think as mature individuals that we are and not like those people (not you) who are jaded and hopeless that idealism and rule of law are things already belonging with the past.
Let’s see if the SC will rule that she really is a duck, a duck that is natural born as provided by the constitution still in place at the moment. For now, there is no quarrel with her being a duck.
Trolls that now visit this blog site could be persons already indoctrinated by the Chinese, a possibility, right? Such things are not entirely impossible. They could be in any government agency hereabout.
MGP, this is the problem with your seeming ambition to try and sound like a knowledgeable and discerning legal expert in this blogsite and others. More often than not you are ignorant of the law and what little you do know, you do not understand. The other major requirement in not misleading yourself and others in a key legal argument is you must not only know and understand the law, but you must also know the facts and not go around declaring a distorted version of it. It is specially dangerous to do the latter distortion at a blogsite where the original text can be cut and repasted to demonstrate the fabrications. It is also not recommended when the exchange involved directly our gracious host and one of the most prolific posters here, Irineo Salazar. The cut and paste procedure or the recollection of the two gentlemen should confirm the legal point that you glossed over is that, in the 1961 UNHR convention treaty dealing with the citizenship of foundlings, it states that the presumption shall be that the parents of the foundling are citizens of the country the child is found in. This is very different from your pontificating that the foundling is presumed to be a citizen from birth, regardless of whether that presumption is rebuttable, and if it can be rebutted successfully, then the law does not operate! I tried to simply and indelibly explain this by using the example of extraterrestial parents leaving a green skinned infant with a big head and spindly limbs being left in that churchyard in Jaro with a note “ET, phone home” instead of a baby with Asian features as an example of a rebuttable presumption. You did not get the legal point then and you still have not gotten it now. If you must fabricate things to make yourself look good and legally savvy, take my word for it, this is not the way to do it. I a sorry to say so…but this is beyond stupid and I do care to furter discussit and I will thank you to keep me out of your colorful stories.
*******
I believe Mary is basing her claim on Justice Brion’s SET opinion:
“Quite conceivably, it might be argued that although the Philippines and the U.S. were not signatories to the 1930 Hague Convention, the U.S. Nationality Law nevertheless grants citizenship to foundlings and, therefore, the 1930 Hague Convention could be treated as a customary international law that, under Section 3, Article II of the 1935 Constitution, formed part of
the law of the land.
“This argument likewise carries no merit given that the 1930 Hague Convention itself, under its Article 18, recognizes that its signing by the several signatory-countries does not make the 1930 Hague Convention customary international law and will not in any way “ prejudice the question of whether they do or do not already form part of international law.” Notably, the 1930 Hague Convention allows any signatory-country to denounce the Convention (under Article 28), as well as to reserve and declare that, in accepting the Convention, “ [it] does not assume any obligations in respect of all or any of [its] colonies, protectorates, overseas territories or territories under suzerainty or mandate, or in respect of certain parts of the population of the said territories x x x or that the Convention shall cease to apply’ to any or all of these colonies, etc.” (under Article
29).103
“103 For the same reason, the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness x x x cannot also be claimed as a customary international law that should form part of the law. In this light, no further discussion of this 1961 Convention appears necessary.”
*****
MGP, thank you for the correction and information about referendums in the Philippines. Yes I agree I have much to learn about your country..And I look forward to doing so.
But perhaps I should make clear that I am not entirely ignorant of the Philippines. I visited your country for a month in 1974. I was struck by the welcoming friendly nature of the people. I was also puzzled about how such a country could be afflicted by the Marcos dictatorship. Later on back in Australia I learned the answer to that question when I met and was a friend for a while of the Philippino journalist Amando Doronila who had fled the Marcos regime and came to Australia. I see that Armando though he lives in Canberra ( Australia ) still writes for the Manila Enquirer.
Let me turn now to the ‘foundling Grace Poe ‘ issue which still seem ‘afflict’ your thinking. I’m sure you have heard of the maxim : “the law is an ass” . Well often it is. I am also reminded of what a lawyer ( my brother ) once said to me. “The law is not about justice. ”
However the election of a country’s national leader/president demands a legitimate process. Screening out a major candidate because she is a Philippino ‘foundling’ will undermine the election’s legitimacy in the eyes of many Philippinos. The fact is that another candidate ( Duterte ) has been given approval to be a candidate by COMELEC. Duterte has publicly stated that while major & boss of Davao for 20 odd years, he supported and encouraged the elimination of suspected criminals by semi-official gangs. So a crim gets the go-ahead while a ‘foundling’ is eliminated !!!
Surely you see that this undermines the legitimacy of whoever is elected as next president of the Philippines. On this matter the Philippines risks becoming a laughing stock n the eyes of citizens in other democratic nations. I know that you favor Mar Rohas as the next president. But surely he does not want to win a national election tainted by such goings on.
Bill in Oz
Let’s just wait what the Supreme Court will say about this. I have said what I feel needs to be said on the matter – that I am a firm believer of the rule of law and the supremacy of the constitution being the fundamental law of the land. All treaties, laws (local or international) must conform with it.
Bill in Oz, Poe had mentioned that also, tweaking Mar about winning by default, meaning that if she gets disqualified, Mar’s win will not be credible. I have to disagree. Mar and his group keep on insisting that they have nothing to do with those DQ cases, the group of Binay (Tatad, Tiangco, David and others) have initiated all of this and have filed the cases at the SET, SC and Comelec. It seems explanations against their perception fall on deaf ears and they continue those accusations in the media so that voters will go on pitying Poe and make Mar the villain for her legal woes.
We keep on repeating, she is a Filipino (though not natural born), no one is denying her a nationality, she is not stateless, she was given a luxurious life by her millionaire adoptive parents, a great life, excellent education, a chance to further her studies in the USA, work there while waiting to inherit her millions. She was dumped when an infant, yes, but she was not kicked around. She was loved and cared for, not to be pitied like all the other emaciated Filipinos who were not given the opportunities given her.
If our constitution and laws will deny her the dream of being President, why blame it on Roxas or to supporters like me who cling to democratic processes that we had fought for?
Whatever the decisions of these government institutions had been (Comelec) and will be based (hopefully by SC) on the existing constitution and laws. If the world will laugh at us for upholding our constitution and laws, then that’s unfortunate, but we are a sovereign country.
Duterte’s disqualification case is still to be heard by the Comelec, as far as I know, no decision yet on that. In fact Poe and Duterte are both in the list of the presidential candidates, because on the part of Poe, even if her case has been decided upon by the Comelec, it is expected to be elevated to the SC who will have the final say on the matter, Duterte as I have said will be decided still. They have to upload the list to their system preparatory to the printing of the official ballots. So saying that “Screening out a major candidate because she is a Philippino ‘foundling’ will undermine the election’s legitimacy in the eyes of many Philippinos. The fact is that another candidate ( Duterte ) has been given approval to be a candidate by COMELEC. Duterte has publicly stated that while major & boss of Davao for 20 odd years, he supported and encouraged the elimination of suspected criminals by semi-official gangs. So a crim gets the go-ahead while a ‘foundling’ is eliminated !!! ” is not entirely true.
Thanks, sir edgar. I have always said that I base my post and beliefs on published opinions of the SC associate justice members of the SET and the Comelec ruling. I have specifically mentioned Justice Arturo Brion once or twice. I am having difficulty copy pasting from such published decisions (from PDF files). The gadget I am using at home limits my accessing the website as I always lose what I have already composed in the comment box while I go from one tab to another, I reconstruct what was lost but sometimes not everything is included from my original idea. Perhaps I need to plug in my desk PC next time.
The main issue which I reacted to has to do with a fabricated story of something I said which I tried to correct in my post. The legal point in the original exchange had to do with what internatinal law correctly says under a convention setup by the UNHR an agency of the UN which are a member of and signatory to. This is completely different from the issue of whether it is applicable to Poe as we were talking about what the law says, which is why it was irrelevant to my comment I did not say you were stupid, edgar, but the discussion was. Do not take it as an ad hominem because you are not stupid but everyone can have stupid arguments when the issues are not the same.
The fact is there is no jurisprudence as to when and what international or customary law is applicable when the Constitution is silent on the issue. That is why Chief Justice Panganiban can think it is applicable to Poe and AJ Brion the opposite. Brion’s opinion does not carry the weight of law and it was a dissenting opinion against the majority SET decision, the point being dissenting opinions do not become legal precedent.
One could say that there are so many critical legal issues that need to be removed by the Supreme Court, it would be a shame if they denied to hear Poe’s case. For example, remember the condonation doctrine? It was not in our constitution but adopted as part of our law because the SC decided customary law practiced in several US states was applicable here. For example, I am a dual citizen like Poe and the Comelec decided that under the DC law, I am a naturalized citizen and not NBFC inspite of the fact that the Supreme Court decided in 2001 HRET vs. Bengzon ruled the contrary. So these issues run pretty deep and justices have different views until the SC can decide and explain their decisions.
So if someone who is not a lawyer and a good one at that starts quoting me the constitution or their interpretation of it like it was straight out of a Shariah passage of the Kuran, I tend to get a bit frustrated.
*******
caliphman,
Points taken and understood.
*****
I hope we are good, edgar 🙂
*******
Caliphman & Mary Grace,
I admire — and envy — the passion both of you invests in political partisanship. I am glad neither of you favor Binay or Duterte.
*****
“Moreover, repatriation results in the recovery of the original nationality.[26] This means that a naturalized Filipino who lost his citizenship will be restored to his prior status as a naturalized Filipino citizen. On the other hand, if he was originally a natural-born citizen before he lost his Philippine citizenship, he will be restored to his former status as a natural-born Filipino. It bears stressing that the act of repatriation allows him to recover, or return to, his original status before he lost his Philippine citizenship.”
http://sc.judiciary.gov.ph/jurisprudence/2001/may2001/142840.htm
I am wondering allowed:
If this will be used in the case of Poe, my inexpert opinion is “it will it be necessary first to establish the citizenship of Poe before determining what nationality she will recover after taking the oath of allegiance to the Philippine government.”
Cruz was a natural born Filipino citizen before he lost it. The SC dismissed Bengzon’s petition as he recovered his natural born citizen status after repatriation.
If it will established by the SC that Poe is a presumed “naturalized Filipino citizen”, then that is the citizenship that she will recover after taking her oath or repatriation.
“Natural born citizens of the Philippines who, after the effectivity of this Act, become citizens of a foreign country shall retain their Philippine citizenship upon taking the aforesaid oath.”
http://www.comelec.gov.ph/?r=References/RelatedLaws/ElectionLaws/OAV/RA9225
AN ACT MAKING THE CITIZENSHIP OF PHILIPPINE CITIZENS WHO ACQUIRE FOREIGN CITIZENSHIP PERMANENT, AMENDING FOR THE PURPOSE COMMONWEALTH ACT. NO. 63, AS AMENDED AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES
Section 3. Retention of Philippine Citizenship – Any provision of law to the contrary notwithstanding, natural-born citizenship by reason of their naturalization as citizens of a foreign country are hereby deemed to have re-acquired Philippine citizenship upon taking the following oath of allegiance to the Republic:
“I _____________________, solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the Republic of the Philippines and obey the laws and legal orders promulgated by the duly constituted authorities of the Philippines; and I hereby declare that I recognize and accept the supreme authority of the Philippines and will maintain true faith and allegiance thereto; and that I imposed this obligation upon myself voluntarily without mental reservation or purpose of evasion.”
Natural born citizens of the Philippines who, after the effectivity of this Act, become citizens of a foreign country shall retain their Philippine citizenship upon taking the aforesaid oath.
Section 4. Derivative Citizenship – The unmarried child, whether legitimate, illegitimate or adopted, below eighteen (18) years of age, of those who re-acquire Philippine citizenship upon effectivity of this Act shall be deemed citizenship of the Philippines.
Section 5. Civil and Political Rights and Liabilities – Those who retain or re-acquire Philippine citizenship under this Act shall enjoy full civil and political rights and be subject to all attendant liabilities and responsibilities under existing laws of the Philippines and the following conditions:
Those intending to exercise their right of surffrage must meet the requirements under Section 1, Article V of the Constitution, Republic Act No. 9189, otherwise known as “The Overseas Absentee Voting Act of 2003” and other existing laws;
Those seeking elective public office in the Philippines shall meet the qualification for holding such public office as required by the Constitution and existing laws and, at the time of the filing of the certificate of candidacy, make a personal and sworn renunciation of any and all foreign citizenship before any public officer authorized to administer an oath;
Those appointed to any public office shall subscribe and swear to an oath of allegiance to the Republic of the Philippines and its duly constituted authorities prior to their assumption of office: Provided, That they renounce their oath of allegiance to the country where they took that oath;
Those intending to practice their profession in the Philippines shall apply with the proper authority for a license or permit to engage in such practice; and
That right to vote or be elected or appointed to any public office in the Philippines cannot be exercised by, or extended to, those who:
are candidates for or are occupying any public office in the country of which they are naturalized citizens; and/or
are in active service as commissioned or non-commissioned officers in the armed forces of the country which they are naturalized citizens.
Section 6. Separability Clause – If any section or provision of this Act is held unconstitutional or invalid, any other section or provision not affected thereby shall remain valid and effective.
Section 7. Repealing Clause – All laws, decrees, orders, rules and regulations inconsistent with the provisions of this Act are hereby repealed or modified accordingly.
Section 8. Effectivity Clause – This Act shall take effect after fifteen (15) days following its publication in the Official Gazette or two (2) newspaper of general circulation.
Approved,
(Sgd.) FRANKLIN DRILON (Sgd.) JOSE DE VENECIA JR.
President of the Senate Speaker of the House of Representatives
This Act, which is a consolidation of Senate Bill No. 2130 and House Bill No. 4720 was finally passed by the House of Representatives and Senate on August 25, 2003 and August 26, 2003, respectively.
(Sgd.) OSCAR G. YABES (Sgd.) ROBERTO P. NAZARENO
Secretary of Senate Secretary General, House of Represenatives
Approved: August 29, 2003
(Sgd.) GLORIA MACAPAGAL-ARROYO
President of the Philippines
ooops, major major typo there…wondering “aloud” not “allowed”
Continuing my musing aloud (this is addressed to other interested readers and not to the person or persons who has me in his/her ignore list) : it seems only natural born Filipino citizens are qualified to avail of RA 9225. but:
Filipino citizens who have lost their citizenship may however reacquire the same in the manner provided by law. Commonwealth Act. No. 63 (C.A. No. 63), enumerates the three modes by which Philippine citizenship may be reacquired by a former citizen: (1) by naturalization, (2) by repatriation, and (3) by direct act of Congress.[15]
Naturalization is a mode for both acquisition and reacquisition of Philippine citizenship. As a mode of initially acquiring Philippine citizenship, naturalization is governed by Commonwealth Act No. 473, as amended. On the other hand, naturalization as a mode for reacquiring Philippine citizenship is governed by Commonwealth Act No. 63.[16] Under this law, a former Filipino citizen who wishes to reacquire Philippine citizenship must possess certain qualifications[17] and none of the disqualifications mentioned in Section 4 of C.A. 473.[18]
Repatriation, on the other hand, may be had under various statutes by those who lost their citizenship due to: (1) desertion of the armed forces;[19] (2) service in the armed forces of the allied forces in World War II;[20] (3) service in the Armed Forces of the United States at any other time;[21] (4) marriage of a Filipino woman to an alien;[22] and (5) political and economic necessity.[23]
As distinguished from the lengthy process of naturalization, repatriation simply consists of the taking of an oath of allegiance to the Republic of the Philippines and registering said oath in the Local Civil Registry of the place where the person concerned resides or last resided.
http://sc.judiciary.gov.ph/jurisprudence/2001/may2001/142840.htm
Disclosure: I acknowledge that I am not an expert in law, my postings are aimed as a springboard for enlightening discussions whether to dispute, rebut or to confirm so I can fully understand whatever rulings that maybe released by the SC. I have an unending thirst for knowledge and no amount of ridicule can stop me from searching for it and airing what I think about the product of my searches.. If I read a published ruling, I adopt it if I deemed it reasonable, logical and based on the constitution, law or jurisprudence WHILE WAITING for the SC’s final ruling, or even AFTERWARDS. Sometimes I agree with the dissenting opinion although I have no choice but to accept the majority decision.
Poe availed of RA 9225. I now understand why she filled up her application form “stating that her biological parents are FPJ and Susan although almost everybody including herself knows she is a foundling. It’s because only natural born citizens are qualified to avail of that Republic Act.
My simple understanding, am willing to be corrected.
Hi MGP
My computer seems confused or perhaps the WordPress server is
But..I wish to respond to your comment about COMELEC dealing of Duterte & Poe ‘s applications to be on the ballot for the election next year..
I agree that Poe’s case will be decided by the Supreme Court of the Philippines.Here’s hoping these eminent judges can decided this issue in a way that reinforces Phiipino democracy rather than undermines it.
Duterte’s case is rather different. The Philippine Enquirer on the 18th of December ran as it’s headline on page 1″ COMELEC : It’s Go for Duterte Run”.
Now this I find even more bizarre. Dutete has boasted about his links and support for par-police death squads to eliminate ‘criminals & drug dealers’ in Devao city during his time as mayor/city boss there. That is criminal association in my mind. And is in itself grounds for being charged with criminal offence. Perhaps the Supreme Court will take an interest in Duterte’s running for president.I certainly hope so again that they will do so in a way that reinforces Philippino democracy rather than undermines it.
Bill in Oz
Edgar, I am sorry but that is irrelevant to the point at issue which has to do with what I said and why I said it .The exchange was between Joe, Irineo, myself and MGP and you were not a party to it. How you know what MGP was basing her statements on what the Constitution or an associate justice’s interpretation of the significance of international law as far as foundlings are concerned are beyond me and since your competence is not in constitutional law and it was my name and not yours she brought up, I fail to see why we should be discussing this at all. Unless you would like to elaborate why treaties whether signed or unsigned become operative as international law whether we sign it or not, inspite of what Brion writes in his dissenting opinion, I suggest this is pointless and even more stupid and baseless as the fabricated allegation that GP mentioned about d.
Edgar reads everything, and there are no restrictions to commentary. Anyone may comment on any point, and Edgar was merely offering a point of clarification, which I personally appreciated after your significant personal rant. I don’t appreciate postings that challenge the motives and integrity of people who are expressing themselves forthrightly.
I’d suggest you dial your attitude back a few notches and stick with issues.
*******
caliphman,
It may be that what I quoted is irrelevant to your original issue.
I posted the quote because of this statement of yours: “The cut and paste procedure or the recollection of the two gentlemen should confirm the legal point that you glossed over is that, in the 1961 UNHR convention treaty dealing with the citizenship of foundlings, it states that the presumption shall be that the parents of the foundling are citizens of the country the child is found in.”
Did Mary Grace gloss over a legal point with respect to the 1961 UNHR convention?
Her claim was based on a Supreme Court justice’s opinion.
I know that was her basis because she said she read the opinion closely in one of her posts.
Please dispense with the ad hominems.
****
Edgar, I am not passionate about any presidential candidate. If anything, I am anti-Binay only I dread and detest a Duterte dictatorship anymore. I do not care if either Poe or Roxas wins as both are capable of being worthy successors to Pinoy and will not turn the government into a kleptocracy or worse, a dictatorship.I dislike Mar supporters who think nothing of engaging in character assasination or using squid tactics just so Mar can improve his very dim prospects for a successful campaign. And yes, as someone who started out on a law career, I have always been passionate and concerned about the most legally vulnerable members of humanity, foundlings who have been abandoned by their parents and again by our society. If I appear to defend Poe very passionately against those who persecute her in the name of petty politics and Mar, its more because I am ardently pro-foundling and believe she is our best shot for stopping a Binay or Duterte presidency in 2016.
Again, there is something I do not know about this Philippines. So I will ask the question here : “Is there preferential voting in the Philippines ? ”
Preferential voting means being able to vote 1,2 , 3, 4 etc for each of all the candidates in a ballot. That is what we do here in Oz. If a candidate wins more than 50% of the total vote then s/he is declared the winner.
If no one achieves this, the votes of candidate with the lowest number of votes are distributed according to the preferences of the voters. If a candidate now has more than 50% then s/he will be declared the winner.
If no one still has not achieved more than 50% the process is repeated with the all the votes of the candidate with the second fewest number of votes being distributed as per the voters preferences..
Usually by this stage there is a winner. And often the winner is not the person who had the most, or a ‘plurality’ of the votes at the start.
This system has very interesting & democratically useful consequences.It tends toward stable governments.It tends towards building coalitions of parties seeking & gaining government. It tends toward preventing & curtailing dominant one person rule. ( ask Kevin Rudd or Tony Abbot !! )
I could write more on this if needed but that’s enough for now.
Bill in Oz
********
Bill in Oz,
The Philippines does not use preferential voting. It uses first-past-the-post or plurality voting.
Definition: “The candidate who polls the highest number of formal votes, – even if that number is not more than 50% plus one of the formal votes – is elected.”
So a candidate can win by a simple majority of votes, as opposed to supermajority, which denotes more than a 50% level of support. In 1992, Fidel Ramos became president after garnering just 23.58% of the popular vote.
We do not have runoff elections.
As you note, the Philippine system is defective in that the winning candidate may not have the support of the majority of voters
*****
President Aquino stormed to the win with something like 43% of the votes.
Hi Edgar !
Thank you for your response..I did not know that the Philippines uses the old fashioned ‘plurality’ system still used by the UK & in the USA.
I follow the news in Argentina having been there in 2014 for 2 months. Even Argentina at least has a run off election. This is illustrated by Mauricio Macri ( of the Cambiemos coalition ) being elected president in November with 51.6% of the total vote. In the first round of the election I think he got just 37% with the Scioli, the then Kirchener government candidate gaining 39%.
Two comments can be made here 1- In the period between the two elections a significant number of voters changed their minds. and 2 – It is really important in a democracy that a government have the electoral support of a majority of the citizens.
I am disappointed to read that in the Philippines, Fidel Ramos was elected president with the votes of just 23.57% of those who voted. I assume as there is no compulsory voting system in the Philippines, that this means he became president in reality with an even smaller percentage of the Philippine citizens voting for him ..
Bill in Oz
*******
Some are compelled to vote because of the goodies they receive — a middling-denomination peso bill, instant noodles, canned goods and a t-shirt.
*****
In that event Edgar,the preferential system is much to be desired.I suspect it might be far harder for ‘patrons’ to control preference flows in an election, than it is to control a simple ‘single’ vote….
*******
Oh, I agree. But the complexity of preferential voting — in the casting of votes and especially in the tabulation of votes — would present enormous difficulties for Filipinos.
o The large population lends itself to one-round plurality voting.
o Automation of preferential voting is difficult and expensive. Note that Oz voting is not automated in the casting and counting of votes. Automation only enters into the picture in the aggregation of precinct results.
o The conduct of elections in Oz is so efficient and swift. Electoral rolls are maintained throughout the year. Federal and state-wide results are generally known by 10:00 pm on voting day. Only close contests in a few electorates require days/weeks.
o Before automation, elections results in the Philippines were not made official until after a few weeks. I have the impression it took a month or more than a month. This led to all sorts of shenanigans, in the counting and canvassing (aggregation) of votes. Preferential voting if done manually in the Philippines would be chaotic.
*****
The lying and backbiting continues but now at CPM which I visit occasionally to read Raissa’s great articles. I came across this in the comments and all one has to do is read the posts above to find out who fabricated what story and whether it was Edgar above who posted Brion’s opinion after she posted her unrelated fabrication. This person needs some scruples.
Mary says:
December 30, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Beware, yvonne…somebody will surely be upset again with you as he was with me at Joe’s just because I dared post that I believe and repeat the published opinions of the SC SAJ Carpio, Brion, de Castro and the Comelec legal divisions. Why are Poe’s supporters so sensitive when we post comments contrary to their beliefs and opinions? Is free speech now to be discouraged by people who are experts in law?
Hi, caliphman…Merry Christmas.
I hope you find again that ignore button specifically reserved for me.
You go on and believe the treaty and international laws, and I will go on with my belief that they must conform with what our constitution provides.
Readers will choose who to believe so let’s leave it at that.
Thank you for calling me again stupid and ignorant. You are always revealing yourself when others do not agree with your learned opinion. If believing in the constitution and the law makes me stupid and ignorant, so be it.
Happy holidays!
Sorry to inform you but I receive alerts when my name is mentioned by people I have on ignore and still persist in backbiting. . But this sorry episode unfortunately demonstrates why you are included in my ignore list in the first place and deserve to be put back in again. Have a nice life, Mary.
Thank you for putting me back in your ignore list, caliphman. Have a nice life , too.
And I will get back to discussing issues and practical applications of what I learn here.
Thank you, sir edgar for ably clarifying what I was trying to say.
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/549276/news/nation/grace-poe-should-be-dropped-from-list-of-candidates-tatad – now we all know who Tatad is… ex Marcos propagandist and Binay’s direct “familiar” (creatures close to sorcerers and demons)
I am more and more convinced that Mar is NOT behind the disqualification stuff… it is Binay who benefits the most from people THINKING it is the Roxas camp… and many Roxas supporters eager to have Poe disqualified don’t make that impression better. Parekoy has mentioned in CPM that he sees Binay behind all the anti-Roxas propaganda over the years – and Binay is the beneficiary of many Poe votes getting lost – cui bono…
IBRS, Parekoy must have the biggest chimay and houseboy/chuper network feeding him the inside dirt on politicians all the,way to the East Coast where he is. If that is his latest scoop from his operatives, maybe you are both right and Binay might be behind the DQ cases against Poe and Duterte. Mar supporters have this delusion that by slandering or stopping Poe, her supporters will shift to Mar; ie. he will corner the Daang Matuwid or anti-corruption mode. Only problem is a careful analysis of the pivotal D masa votes where Poe suffered significant erosion shows they end up supporting Duterte or Binay and not Mar. Nothing new there since the 2013 campaign the same thing happened with Mar’s mr. palengke campaign stalling and Binay steadily accumulating the D votes.Only in this race Duterte and Poe is pulling D’s from his camp, so indeed a primary strategy of DQing Poe if not Duterte makes sense and if Duterte survives DQ, just hoping this loose cannon will self-destruct. I am not sure if Binay would pick someone like Tatad to head the DQ strategy. Tatad is no lawyer and is not the sharpest tool in the shed. In fact his Comelec complaint should have been thrown out as this court can only DQ based on a finding of misrepresentation and not lack of qualification.
Season’s greetings josephivo.
Mary,be inspired by star wars.Luke Sky Walker was not lured to the dark side even if sired by one who went to the dark side.
Sorry, karl, can’t relate to Star Wars, haha.. I enjoy novels more than movies, even the Robert Ludlum based movies (the Jason Bourne series) were not as exciting as the books. I tried watching one and it proved to be a disappointment, not comparable with the books. The books held me spell bound, can’t put it down unless a new unrelated chapter begins.
BBM was sired by Marcos, Chiz by Salvador Escudero, their actions mirror those of their fathers preferring to surround themselves with the remnants of the previous regime. BBM with Enrile, Estrada, etc. who raised his hands when he declared his VP candidacy. Who sired Poe, I wonder, and why did she decide to gravitate towards those (like Escudero, Robert Ongpin, the Zamoras, etc.) who are associated with that regime?
Nature versus nurture. FPJ and Susan raised her, those movie stars are known avid supporters of Marcos and there was a police report that FPJ threatened to shoot a restaurant owner if she supported Cory in the snap election and proceeded to shoot the walls and furnitures of the restaurant. Movies portrayed by FPJ belied his true nature, it seems. He was for the dictator and not on the side of the oppressed masa. Star struck masa voters do not realize that movies are different from reality.
Merry Christmas, joseph and the rest whom I have not greeted yet.
“Truth does not exist, only probability of truth exists.” FALSE. I do not agree that truth is relative or probabilistic – even if one refers to Heisenberg’s cat being both alive and dead. You are not talking about truth. In conceptualizing truth, I always refer to gravity. Something may have a probability of being true – but there is no probability of not falling if you jump from a building.
So you are not a Jainist 🙂 According one of the oldest religions, Jainism: “No single, specific, human view can claim to represent absolute truth.” When it is not absolute you only can assign it a probability.
Isn’t truth linked to beliefs? And everyone is entitled to his beliefs as long as they do not lastingly harm me.
I’m talking of truth in the context of judgement, not in formal theories as mathematics.
Quantum mechanics has a probability for gravity. All my atoms reacting simultaneously in a similar exceptional way… the galaxy might be too small to write all zero’s to express this probability, but it is possible. Or simpler, just believe in miracles.
Excuse me MGP, I’m just a foreigner from Australia….We have a ‘tale” told here in Oz about lawyers : “There was a 20 seater plane.It crashed with 19 lawyers on board. The popular response was ‘waste of a seat’…That indicates our attitude here to the legal profession. The first time I heard that tale it was was from a lawyer and a brother.
You suggest that the decision about who can run for president of the Phillippines must be left to experts in COMELEC & the Supreme Court..
However that is just what has happened since 1945 in the Philippines : the elite experts and their politicians of the Philippines have always run the show. So the present state of the Phillipines country and economy is their ‘gift’ to the Philippino people..Not such a great ‘gift’ in my opinion compared to what has been achieved in other countries in the region.
Think about this MGP : there is massive poverty; there is massive under education. Despite 10 million Philippinos working or living overseas, there is massive unemployment; there is a simmering low level ‘war’ in Mindanao, that has been going on since the 1979’s. And to top it off the Marcos family, overthrown in 1987, after 20 years of dictatorial kleptocracy, are again trying to become a power in the land using the wealth they stole while in power, to again seek high office and power.
On the other hand, in my experience in Australia that the poor and the less educated on lower incomes also have their own wisdom and sense of what is fair and what is right..Maybe it is time for your experts and friends to get out of the way and let the views and the priorities of the ordinary people from the Cordilliera, from the Visayas, from Bicol, maybe even from Palawan , be heard.
Bill in Oz
A quick PS MPG you write :
“The Philippine constitution was framed by experts, ratified by the majority of the Filipinos, let it rule.”
Ummmmmm : Not so quick there ! Has there ever been a referendum in the Phillippines on any issue at all ? Has there been a referendum ratifying the constitution ? I don’t think so. But in Oz that’s exactly what we did when we adopted our constitution in 1899. Ratified by all the people for all the people.
My answer to that is a definite YES, we are not that backward third world country, thank you.. When I say ratified, it meant ratified in a referendum.
That’s not how it should be done. There are laws, procedures, without which, a true democracy cannot be realized and sustained. We all fought for the restoration of that democracy and when we finally have it, we cannot just let it go. It is not perfect but we. are willing to accept it, warts and all.
We just need a few more admins similar to the current one, a continuity. Poverty cannot be totally eliminated, proof is its presence in any other country. If you have followed this blog some years back you will realize that the picture you just painted above is not entirely true.
Try to get the whole picture, maybe the one you were presented were from groups with a different agenda.
MGP I just found this really lovely statement by Leni Robredo..
“Go to the people. Learn from them. Love them. Start with what they know. Build with what they have. But with the best leaders, when the work is done, the task accomplished, the people will say “We have done this ourselves”.”
Yep, I totally agree. That is truly a lovely statement, one that all politicians must read and think about. Thanks for the sharing.
That is precisely the idea behind Mar’s “Php100billion Walang Iwanan Fund”. I have said, this should be Ro-Ro’s core campaign idea, don’t let it get hidden in the details.