“I not be understandin’ President Duterte”
[Photo source: datapipe.com]
I also have taken the liberty of advancing his promotion by a day, since it is not until July 1 that he is actually the President.
Here are things I don’t understand:
- How one can call for unity and then deny the elected Vice President any respect, while sending trolls out to attack all things Aquino. That is severing the nation about as cleanly as it can be done.
- Same thing with regard to burying Marcos. That solves nothing but creates a grand fissure in the minds of all who remember exactly what President Marcos did.
- Putting communists in government? Well that will work if there is peace, and the communists listen and learn as well as preach. But it for sure is a bit dicey. By the way, are there Muslim’s in Duterte’s cabinet? I don’t really know. I’m talking mainstream agencies, not those aimed at liaison with Muslim Mindanao.
- The earth-shaking appointment of an environmentalist to head the Department of Environment and Natural Resources.
- How keeping the press away from inaugurations and briefings can be seen as anything but “controlling the message”, or the first stages of a massive public brainwashing. Do Filipinos really want to live like the Chinese, force fed a truth that is a departure from . . . well . . . the truth? Is THAT the unity to which we must become accustomed?
- Anger never creates unity, I think. There is so much of it running about these days, shouting at the Catholic Church, the press, anyone who objects, and unleashing a cult of murder across the nation. Is diplomacy dead, within the Philippines? It is reserved only for the Chinese?
So I don’t see much real unity coming down the pike, because there can’t be unity among diverse peoples unless there is respect for the differences. I distinguish “real unity” from a kind of unity that is forced down everyone’s throats.
The unfortunate part of this is that I do see hints that the Duterte Administration may, indeed, have innovative and constructive ideas about how to get the nation moving. I like, on a somewhat unstudied, superficial level . . . first blush as it were:
- The proposed shift of cargo, corporate, private, training, and other non-passenger flights out of the Ninoy Aquino International Airport. Relief is definitely needed. The airport is at capacity . . . as the pilots mention on the intercom as they try to explain your four-hour delay . . .
- The formation of DICT to get organized on automation.
- The proposal to acquire special powers to deal with traffic in Manila, cutting through dysfunctional laws with new laws and authorities.
- Extending the term of driver’s licenses and other official documents to cut through the log-jam of repeating, largely useless administrative demands on citizens. And agencies.
- A proposed Executive branch FOI to promote transparent government (although it raises a point of confusion when weighed against antagonism toward mainstream media).
- The building of an impressive majority in both houses of the Legislature, presumably to accelerate the agenda of the President.
The last point bears elaboration because a lot of people are cynical about “turncoatism” and the lack of principles in political parties in the Philippines. Well, that is a different issue, and well worth taking up. However, the political environment is what it is, and any President who hopes to be effective will find his work easier and more productive if the Legislature is behind it. President Duterte has put together the team he needs to get his work done, and for that, he deserves recognition, even if praise is hard for many to conjure up.
The product of the work, of course, is what will serve as the legacy of President Duterte. For national good? For the benefit of the empowered, the “new elite”?
We’ll see.
Another institution of government is the “Fourth Estate”, or free press. It is not an official institution. It is an outgrowth of the idea that information is critically important to an effective democratic government. Well, I’ve argued that the Philippines has no Fourth Estate because the information is sensationalized, generating a rather negative attitude about everything. The well-being of the nation seems seldom to enter into editorial decision-making. Journalism ethics are a lot of talk and little show.
The press would likely argue that the people aren’t interested in information. It is too boring. And I agree with that assessment based on readership levels of various topics at this blog. Informational blogs aren’t read. But I would counter that it is the job of the press to challenge that essential intellectual laziness, and to publish information in bite-size chunks that readers will accept. Furthermore, they can help encourage the development of a “culture of readers” rather than a culture of drama queens and kings.
One other concern. It looks like President Duterte sees the free press as antagonistic to his ideas and work. So he has stopped press conferences and will exclude the mainstream press from his inauguration ceremony. That is troubling. I link that to his communication team’s ongoing work to dominate the dialogue on social media and I see one thing: reshaping the dialogue, diminishing the role of the Fourth Estate, and enhancing the role of a controlled social media.
This fits with an overall approach that seems to be to upset the balance of things by making aggressive statements or establishing a climate of fear, and then using controlled media to tip a confused and fearing people toward the government line. Or punish those who object as “against the Philippines”.
I’d put that subject . . . media control . . . on the confusing list, I suppose.
It is the tried and true autocratic method of trying to control the will of a free people. Surely, President Duterte and his advisors are aware of the track record of other leaders who have gone down this path. It is not pretty, for all the innocents harmed.
And it invariably fails.
They may think, “ah, but that was before social media, and we are the masters at this communications method.”
I’d put that in the category of an overweening sense of infallibility, when there is nothing new under the sun, only new end-runs that invariably fail, too.
Bottom line, I would think President Duterte would want to succeed.
Thus, my confusion.
“I not be understandin’ President Duterte.”
The Society of Honor by Joe America 
AS you said it, the press (I would assumed mainstream media), promotes a “culture of drama queens and kings”. The president-elect may want to change that. Could be the actual reason why he is trying to sideline “the press”.
Yes, good point. I suppose we will have to see if the designated channels of information include dissent as well as conforming views. There are a lot of us skeptics about who need proof that we can trust the information we receive.
The press may indeed be guilty of promoting a ” culture of drama queens and kings,” but I think the president elect is capable of being one all by his lonesome.
He even accused his daughter of being a Drama Queen. Apples and Trees.
Ah, wonderful point. The irony. He got elected because of the drama. Now he is banning his main promoters.
We’ll be seeing a rather eccentric, if not super-polarizing, administration. More than el Presidente Pepe Mojica’s extreme self-austerity.
Sir, I better check my seatbelt. We’re in for a rough ride. Delta Sierra.
Roger that. Pull the buckle tight.
Funny that I am listening to Space Oddity while reading this and I just have to break into a sarcastic grin. Also typing this at DEN airport. 🙂
Turncoatism supports the president’s legislative agenda(paraphrased)
That is the major bright side of turncoatism,turning self interet to national interest,wittingly or unwittingly.
Yes, indeed.
By the way, this trend line shows that the Duterte social media machine is still dominant.
They are here to stay.
But it will also be the huge, dangerous beast that he must carefully handle.
I agree.
One netizen was advised by a friend to be a Miriam Defensor Santiago in a world of Mocha Usons when it comes to dealing with Duterte supporters. Unfortunately, Senator Santiago’s wit has–in my eyes, at least–been blighted by her having placed her running mate dangerously close to the presidency when that man and his entire family–in a truly just society–should never be allowed to wield the power for which he lusts so greedily. So perhaps it would be much better to be a Leni Robredo in a world of Mocha Usons under this administration.
Can transparency render FOI obsolete.Yes,but how on earth can you get every one to be transparent.
Should we be literal like Escudero….glass tables without drawers.
@Joe America, DICT is done under the current administration. So we still have PNoy to thank that, =)
http://www.mb.com.ph/aquino-signs-bill-creating-dict/
Ah, thanks for correcting that major gaffe. That’s what I get for writing first and thinking later.
Thanks to Pnoy for singing it. And future thanks to Duterte if he successfully implemented it. 😀
yes but your news of removing highways from dpwh and merge it with DOT (not tourism of course) is good news.
What will be left to public works? government facilities and posibly utilities?
Good read, as always. I still believe in Duterte’s Admin’s ability to handle “household matters” that affect the daily lives of people, whom, being a mayor, gave him so much experience. However, i am critical on this as how he can delegate and monitor this to local government to ensure it is successful. I may closed my eyes to his means, well, depends on the degree of those means, as long as the common good is not negatively affected, the good end will justify it. History suggest that every success was preceded by sacrifices and wars. I will mention China and the Chinese, look what have they become now, a superpower. We cannot deny China’s means involved suppression and manipulations. Even America way back centuries ago, unhuman methods are always a key ingredient, even Singapore.
Sounds like justification for ill deeds, to me, Andres. At some point, I would like to think our intellectual and human social development would raise us above those horrid historical moments. I’m glad you found the article worth reading, and appreciate the comments, even if I am inclined to bicker now and then. I do want a stable base of readers who are inclined to give President Duterte the benefit of the doubt, or even enthusiastic support.
Even if it incites me to bickering, ahahahaha.
its boring if you have “yes man” readers only, right? As of the moment, what ill deeds can you associate with Duterte? May i mention some, but these ill deeds are not ill at all, it will some how yield a positive result. Increasing cases of killed persons involve in crimes and drugs — negative, possibility that the person killed was innocent, positive, instill fear to the doers of crimes thus they will have second thought to commit. Death penalty — negative, killing is morally wrong, someone deserves second chance, positive, instill fear to the doers. Media boycott — negative, somehow a suppression of freedom of speech, positive, challenge the media to grow somehow. Many more double-edge unofficial pronouncements of Duterte, but im lazy to enumerate.
“To undergo great change, one must also under go great destruction. A strict cycle of death and rebirth.”
Well, it does seem to be true. However, remember that the end doesn’t always justify the means. I think a balance of some sort can be reached. Though they say that to make omelette, you’ll need to break a few eggs; Remember that if you don’t break the egg properly, bits and pieces of shells will be mixed with your omelette. So ask yourself, do you prefer your omelettes fluffy and consistent, or with some shells? =D
fluffy and consistent omelettes absolutely, but this consistent, fluffy omelette is ideal, and ideal are close to impossible to achieve in reality.
Ah yes, better than no omelette. A pragmatic, I see?
uhh you may call it like that, don’t know, but never idealistic.
Jean-Georges Vongerichten, to name but one person, would disagree with you that consistent fluffy omelettes are close to impossible to achieve in reality. And besides, one always removes shell fragments from eggs before making omelettes.
🙂 🙂 🙂
The omelettes quote is from a Stalin apologist by the way. A now disgraced New York Times writer from the show trials era.
One man in the mid 60’s until mid 80’s tried that formula already and look where we are now. That same man will be buried as a hero in the very near future.
And the President’s trust rating will plummet from the current 26% to 12%. Each act forces an equal and sometimes greater reaction.
ps, I believe some of his advisors have mentioned that the burial issue is highly caustic. He may have them shot . . .
Others, as I understand it, are too intimidated to recommend anything that goes against the grain.
All hearsay . . .
What formula are you referring to? can you elaborate further?
Marcos is responsible for the country’s improvements, and also, charge with many violations and corruptions. We have seen both the goods and the bads of Marcos, and to blame all to Marcos of what we are now is erroneous in my opinion. In Marcos’ first term, Philippines experienced increased industrialization and over-all improvements, best compared to its Asian neighbors that time.
I dont know why critics making big deal about Duterte’s stand to the burial, that if you look it deeply, both options will cause no good nor bad for the country. Issues bigger than this one should be given more emphasis.
How old are you, Andres? Do you have first-hand knowledge of Marcos? Was your father gunned down by guards as he exited the airplane? They are not “making” a big deal of it. It WAS a big deal. Your trivializing it is the real big deal.
The fact that Bong-Bong Marcos was basically tied with Leni, means the Marcos legacy is still very much in contention, Joe— with many Filipinos in support of not only Pres. Marcos, but his family. So Marcos is no Pol-Pot, is my point.
Also take seriously, Marcos’ legacy, that he still commands support, is a big deal. Hence DU30’s decision to bury him there. Like I said kills two birds… the issue of burial and political support, whereas the forces not to bury him there have dwindled.
As per usual, you have fluid principles which allow you to send your mind in that direction. Mine won’t go there. Yes, the Marcos name, wealth and power are still here, a huge mistake by prior administrations and the well nourished laws of entitlement. To me, Bong Bong’s prominence is a disgrace to the idea that we should prize honesty and humility. I know those are just ideals to you, to be bent subject to the goals. You are free to have your principles, as I remain happy with mine.
It’s not about your principles or mine, Joe. It’s about those who support the Marcoses, are we to relegate them to non-persons? attribute stupidity to them , as we’ve done to DU30 supporter?
DU30 I’m sure is looking pass the Marcoses and weighing how he can get his supporters. Principles or not, that’s a unifying act. Granted he is turning his back on the Aquino supporters, but that’s the gamble here.
Remember every move is risky. He’ll make some happy and some sad, no perfect move, Joe.
It is not an Aquino-Marcos issue. He would be turning his back on all who suffered under Marcos, or their heirs who continue to suffer, plus on the idea of what a hero or the Philippines is about. It is about principles, not just politics.
You have a better feel for the pulse of the masses there, Joe, but of the AFP/PNP I came across they were largely pro-Marcos… which tells me that those who “suffered” and those who “benefited” are about even, hence Bong-Bong Marcos’ popularity still.
So obviously the country didn’t “suffer” equally under the first Marcos, is my point, Joe. 🙂
LCpl_X (@LCpl_X), it is to be expected that some in the AFP would still think nice things of the Marcoses, when it is during the Martial Law regime that many generals and officers amassed wealth through a culture of corruption that exists deep in the AFP even today. (To a lesser degree, one hopes.) The Philippine military was turned into a killing machine that not only cemented Marcos’ control, but protected the private business interests of cronies like Cojuangco and Enrile. The younger generation of officers have a sense that the AFP has never been as powerful–or as feared–since then.And what member of the military doesn’t like feeling powerful? Also, relentless, well-funded propaganda by the Marcos family through succeeding generations of political allies, coupled with an ingrained Filipino cultural tic of letting sleeping dogs lie, has worn away at the truth and created a widespread perception among younger Filipinos that no account of our history is trustworthy–and that therefore everything must be untrue.
The post-ML AFP has known that things are not right; they know that they are still–despite recent modernization efforts–under-trained, under-equipped, and sometimes badly led. So perhaps those AFP you speak of prefer to hark back to a totally mythical past under strongman Marcos, instead of really probing into and dealing with systemic ills in the service, which would entail taking responsibility and, yes, assigning blame. Under the current weak justice system, that is not likely to take anyone far.
One thing that, acknowledged or not, has twisted the military mind into thinking Marcos was OK: From the onset of Martial Law in the 1970s onward, ALL the armed fighting engaged in by the military has been against fellow Filipinos. This is what has framed how our solders think. This has been the status quo for almost half a century. This would totally screw up any nation. Why should ours be an exception?
Despite the lies and cover-ups of Martial Law, there are still many of refuse to forget the thousands who were killed and tortured. You may not care about them, but we do. This is not post-election bitterness, as the Duterte camp keeps on saying. “Just move on.” Maybe it’s the military who hasn’t moved on since Marcos’ strongman fantasies of the 1970s.
Vicara,
I totally understand all that (and thanks for the history, I’ve always appreciated your input). But my point is that the support whether based on myth or lies , the support is real. Further, I didn’t really get the impression that you outlined, I think it was more an ethno-linguistic support not so much based on the military stuff—- they probably grew up being told as kids that Marcos was not only a hero, he kicked-ass.
Yes, LCpl_X (@LCpl_X), you are right that many of the young (AFP or not) believe it. But that myth grew out of the mandate given the AFP by Marcos’ Martial Law. Power, once tasted, is addictive and stored in cellular memory. A hankering for it is passed on to succeeding generations in a golden glow of nostalgia. And people are resistant to cold, hard fact. More in this culture, perhaps, than in others.
Nope, i dont have a first-hand knowledge. The burial was no big deal for me because, as i have said, buried or not, the nation will neither benefit it or not. And if you are buried there it doesnt mean you are a hero. Can you tell me why that burial issue, in relation to Duterte, should be given most importance? With regards to the father gunned down, the killer said that the uncle was associated with it, but lets not go deeper to this gunning down thing, its to sensitive i think, maybe.
Because it divides the country, deeply. It is important because so many people are upset about it. Why do you discount their pains if you know nothing about that time?
You said it will promote divisibility, Duterte said it will promote unity. The factor lies how many Filipinos support Marcos and how many hates him. I am inclined to believe that more Filipinos acknowledge him than hated him, because despite all, Bongbong almost won the VP race, and Duterte’s Team saw this, more Filipino will approved the burial than those who will get upset, but i think most Filipino will just simply simply wont care, like me. As i have said, its almost impossible to caters the needs and wants of every Filipinos, sacrifice is the name of the game.
I personally would be dismayed that the sense of moral wrong would be so easily excused in the Philippines, and real heroes would be diminished in stature by being made to lie beside a cruel leader who robbed the nation blind and ran the economy into the ground, that being a main contributor to the poverty that wracks the nation to this day. I know you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but I can say candidly that I don’t agree with or respect the values that are attached to it.
30 years ago, Marcos left the country with 28B USD external debt. When Cory was the president, she had the option to repudiate the debt, but she did not. Yes, Marcos buried the country in debt, and Cory that time had the option to negotiate it, but why, why did she honor the debt? You are close to the Aquinos, hope you can enlighten me on this.
I’m not close to the Aquinos. I’d imagine because she wanted the nation to be seen internationally as having integrity. I’d also imagine you could google it to find out. So you are trying to shift blame for the nation’s poverty from Marcos to Aquino? Pretty detestable manipulation.
@ Andres
Had Bongbong apologised for his father’s misdeeds, he would have won the election.
Had the family return the billion dollar loot, the people will be united.
To bury a dictator in a national heroes cemetery is to desecrate the place.
Watch out. There is a re-awakening of sorts. Marcos haters have been aroused from their slumber after watching Bongbong’s near win. There is great pressure to correct local history books. Recent activists’ protest of heroes’ stones at Marcos’ grave site is just an example.
Check the accounts of the time Andres..
Having thrown out Marcos with US blessing Cory did not want to alienate USA support by rejecting the Marcos debt..That could have lead to less US support.
If she had been smart though she would have invited the foreign lenders to join the Commission she set up to search for what Marcos had stolen. That would have been helpful as the banks always know ‘where the money is.’ or have friends who can tell them..
@Bill. Haha, you mean Cory wanted the US support? Did she know that the best support could be the extinguisment of the debt that the Filipino never benefited? She was the democracy darling that time of the world! To much or stupidly believing in US support that never come because it was not support at all, it was new loan! The Philippines, to pay it’s loan, made new loan! And now, the Philippines was in deep sh*t. It is clear that time that it is close to impossible to pay that debt. In turn, Cory’s administration violated the very the same constitution they created, that is, instead that the biggest lump of budget will go to education it went to debt payments. One thing that Cory should have learn from Marcos is that debt-funded economy is bad, yet, her administration maintain the same economic policy. We are now at 77B US dollar because of this. Speaking about recovering the ill gotten, PCGG, which Cory created, recoverd 4B usd out of the declared 10b usd. The big question, where is the 4B usd?
The distinction between President Marcos and President Cory Aquino was that Marcos had 20 years and free rein, whereas Aquino was stuck between a rock and a hard place, either decision being bad because the nation had been stripped bare. Kindly stop returning to these trollish stretches of imagination that try to simplify and recast accountabilities where they don’t belong. It is the ugly part of the recent campaign, and I don’t want this kind of pus distorting the arguments here. Marcos wrecked the nation. Aquino re-established it.
Look Joe, this is not among in the trollish stretches of my imagination. I am not relieving Marcos of the horrible things he had done to my country, leaving thousands of Filipinos tortured and killed, and millions in 26B dollars debt, including me and the unborn. I could blame Marcos’ Administration of thousands of inhuman acts and corruption, I could blame Cory’s Administration of wrong decision that further escalated the country’s debt crisis. I could credit Cory for our democracy, she was the figure of it afterall, though millions are behind it. Yes, i am talking here of their accountabilities, both of them, Marcos and Cory. If I relieve Cory of this, as what you are suggesting, i will be a traitor to the history of my country. Guys like you always and will always be blaming Marcos, which is correct, but you closed your eyes to the failures of Cory’s Administration. Her administration maintained the dept dependent economic policies of Marcos, they never learned. You are talking of integrity why Cory honored the debt, debt made by Marcos but never benefited the Filipinos, that time the country was in the position to repudiate it. How can it be an integrity to honor the debt maliciously made by someone in your name and you never benefited from it? I call it stupidity.
It was stupid for Filipinos to watch Marcos for so many years take liberties with their liberties and drive the nation into the ground. You switched the discussion from Marcos to Aquino for what reason? To divert attention, I suspect. We could just as easily discuss Arroyo or FVR with the benefit of hind sight. But they are separate, huge issues, not actually the subject of this blog. So stick with the subject, President Duterte and the burial of Marcos, and don’t take the conversation down diversionary, contentious lines, and we will be fine.
I would add that you don’t raise Duterte and Marcos up by diminishing others. They stand on their own policies and deeds, plain as day.
You are right, Joe, the discussions just now was out of the topic. The switch was just “triggered” for accounting whose to blame of our situation, no real malice or hidden intention afterall. We can go back to the current issues now.
Before exiting this topic which was out of topic.
————-
Philippine Debt Dispute
Reuters
Published: August 10, 1987
MANILA, Aug 9,— Finance Secretary Jaime Ongpin hinted he would resign if the Philippine Congress repudiated any of the country’s foreign debt.
”I don’t want the responsibility for a debt repudiation policy on my shoulders, because in my judgment the consequences would be beyond the ability of this Government to control,” Mr. Ongpin said Saturday.
He told reporters that a debt repudiation would isolate the country in the international financial community and cripple the Government’s economic recovery program. Legislators are discussing proposals to repudiate what they called questionable loans incurred by the former president, Ferdinand E. Marcos.
Asked if he would resign if Congress rejected current policy toward debt repayment, Mr. Ongpin said, ”They would have to find someone else to administer the new policy.”
Legislators have also introduced bills limiting debt repayments to 10 percent of export earnings, but Mr. Ongpin said he did not favor any statutory debt service ceiling.
About 45 percent of the country’s annual export receipts go to service its debt.
In an opening address to Congress on July 27, President Corazon C. Aquino accused foreign creditors of coercing her Government into accepting unfair debt restructuring agreements.
The Philippines recently signed an accord to reschedule $13.2 billion of debt over 17 years.
Thanks for the background on that.
You are welcome.
I remember an exchange with Uncle Sonny about the same topic,he was pro-Marcos back then.
You said it yourself: The son is not the father.
And you say that the people will forget? If Bongbong still hopelessly clings to this request for burial while also continuing to deny the atrocities done during his father’s time, then No. The people will never forget.
From what I can gather though, it seems that Duterte is just keeping Bongbong close for political capital. And @Joe America, can I ask something? Let’s say that our reference is the Aquinos, can you give an idea on how much political capital does Bongbong have? I just can’t seem to gauge it properly. However, it does still seem to be significant.
As for the burial, well, if the masses really do want Marcos buried at the libingan ng mga bayani, well, okay. Why not? However, since you used the VP results as your reference, remember that a significant portion of the voters did not want him to win. So how do we appease them?
Given the above, what I present is this:
They did say that Marcos deserves to be buried in the libingan ng mga bayani because he was a soldier and a former president. Okay. Let them bury Marcos.
But since many people think that this will be make it seem like Marcos is a hero, why not make the gravestone read the following:
“Here lies a former soldier and president that destroyed and pillaged his country.”
I think the 40M+ who didnt voted for Marcos are all against the burial. But i could be wrong on this 40M, its difficult to see in negative statistics, while, i am confident to say that the 14M will agree for the burial. But again this issue should not be given that priority, whatever, will be, buried or not, i could not care that much.
“Here lies a former soldier and even in death he lies still.”
“Who forged his war record to make himself look like a warrior, wearing US medals of honour which the Americans said they never gave him”
@ Andres
You are being presumptious to say that those who voted Du30 support the burial.
Relative of Marcos’ victims have already put hundreds of named rocks there this week. I wonder what will happen after the old bastard is buried
The site may need a 24/7/365 all year guard to stop people desecrating it…I wonder if Bong Bong has thought about that…He may regret it later..
@Chempo
the 14M Filipino are those who voted Bongbong, not Duterte.
Bill in Oz, I left rocks at the Libingan ng mga Bayani this week. No, I have no close friends or relatives who were tortured or killed by the Marcos regime. And that is precisely why I made the pilgrimage and put those rocks there.
This is not as, as suggested by other comments here, a mere matter of alliance/numbers. Not “my” friends. Not “my” relatives. This many votes for one side, this many against another. Duterte said in his Inaugural speech that his administration would be listening to the murmurings of the people. Those murmurings include a wish to respect and honor the dead, and to rectify historical mistakes that were left unattended by previous administrations, for various reasons. To simply uphold truth.
In the case of the Aquinos, I would suggest that their non-pursuit of the Marcoses was primarily to avoid initiating a cycle of vengeance/retribution against those who had inflicted upon the family so much terrible hurt. (Not that this kind of forbearance has ever crossed the minds of those who, having limited imagination and a limited sense of compassion, use the Aquinos’ non-action against them.)
*******
Beautiful sentiments.
*****
My family’s livelihood depended solely to the sugar industry where it was decimated during the Martial Law. I saw and experienced how to be hungry and the brutality of the regime. At my young age, I experienced too an M16 pointed in my head just because I was in a wrong place at wrong time. At a young age, I’ve seen to many killings with brains scattered and other forms of barbarity. Now you’re telling me to applaud for the man? Consider it a form of civility on my part calling him a man. I’m hoping that what you posted will remain just that – an opinion.
Good of you to visit the blog, wiligr, and share your personal knowledge of Marcos.
Im sorry for that horrible experience. Just to clarify, no ones demanding someone to applaud the man, you may hate him as you like, somebody out there may love him as he want. And that was my opinion.
Don’t be sorry for me for I have survived it. Be sorry for the 14 odd million voters who have seemingly refuse to believe the cold hard truth in history.
So i will get back my sympathy? haha, kidding. I believe that the son is not the father.
The son is not the father argument is like a mile wide but quarter of an inch deep water. It lacks depth thus it will quickly evaporate.
my point is, to hate the son because of the father, sounds not good.
But to love the son because of the father? Sounds not so good either.
However, to point it out, people hate him because he seems to feign ignorance about the atrocities done under his father’s rule, if not even actively deny it. Even glorifies the era to the irritation of many. You really can’t blame them.
yeah, we can hate him for that 😀
The Philippines is not alone in this. Other countries have the same problem : a large part of the population believe that a deposed evil dictatorship did a ‘good job’. Examples are Japan, ( under the Military 1933-45) Argentina,( Under the Military 1973-82 ) Chile, ( under Pinochet ) Russia, ( Under Stalin) China ( under Mao).
We tend to think of dictators as a single man..But in fact there are always big groups of people who support and take part & most important benefit from their rule.
This happened under Marco. the Ilocano people of Northern Luzon see him still as their local here who became president and helped them become important in the Philippines. And some people in the Manila elite also were cronies. These people & their descendants are still here.
A contrast is provided by Germany post 1945. The evils of Nazism are examined & taught a lot in schools. And so Nazism is a minor influence in post war Germany. If post 1987 Philippines had done the same in the schools I think that Bong Bong Marcos would have far fewer supporters now
Andres, for only working in government his SALN is 200+
According to his SALN, Marcos had a networth of P200.598 million. – See more at: http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/563299/news/nation/bongbong-marcos-is-wealthiest-vp-bet-with-a-networth-of-over-p200m#sthash.aLNL15Cx.dpuf
If you can explain to me how a government worker can have that amount in his SALN without using his fathers ”stolen” money i will vote for Bong Bong next election…
Ps, I am not talking about what is NOT in his SALN….
@Sup. If you can give the aggregation of that 200M, either, cash or property, and the historical data of his SALN since he started office we can at least do a “financial analysis.” Without out these info we will be walking in darkness.
From a 2013 news report.
Marcos explained in his SALN that he had to make certain adjustments on real investments even if the properties remain under construction or titles not yet in his possession.
The senator’s assets included real properties totaling to P303.5-million: P10 million in terms of cash on hand and cash on bank; nine vehicles worth P16 million; jewelry worth P15 million; paintings at P16.7 million; shares of stocks at P20 million and investment in a condominium unit at Wack-Wack in Mandaluyong and another unit in Ayala, Makati estimated at P85.6 million.
The senator, who hired a reputable appraisal firm for his SALN, also itemized and appraised his painting collection while the properties were based on tax declaration for real property.
Marcos explained that his total net worth was based on the appraisal report of the Cuervo Appraisers, a firm which he hired to appraise his assets for the past years.
The senator’s assets rose significantly through the years as his net worth was placed P126.45 million in 2007; then P179.98 million in 2008; P315.5 million in 2009; P311.5 million in 2010; and P364.39 million in 2011.
He was the richest until Recto came back and of course Cynthia Villar,the billionaire entered the picture.I could understand Villar’s properties. But,can you explain Marcos’ real estate holdings doubling after two years?A new saln directive was his explanation for 2012,do you buy that?
He’s asset are more or less 90% real estate. Changes in valuation can do wonders, can 3x or even 4x the value. Did the number of his properties increase? If the number is just the same, then propably it’s the appraisal that significantly increased the valuation.
Ok Andres,you are the CPA.
After Cuervo testified against Binay,he must have dumped Cuervo,that is why his saln for 2015 got reduced to just 200m.
Do you buy that?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
My family’s livelihood depended solely to the sugar industry where it was decimated during the Martial Law. That’s industrialization to me.
I experienced, first hand, how to be hungry to the point of starvation, witnessed the brutality of the regime. At my young age, I experienced too an M16 pointed in my head just because I was in a wrong place at wrong time. At a young age, I’ve seen too many killings with so much barbarity. Now you’re telling me to applaud for the man? Consider it a form of civility on my part calling him a man. I’m hoping that what you posted will remain just that – an opinion.
That’s the thing. Dictatorships don’t work, even on their own terms.
Lee Kuan Yew.
I do beg you pardon.It’s a sacrilege to put Lee’s name in the same category as Marcos.
The mention of LKY is reference to the statement of @purple that “dictatorship don’t work.” LKY was an authoritarian pragmatist, a dictator but a benevolent one. His means posses issues on civil liberties, invlove media manipulations, hate critics. The good thing was he was not corrupted.
You still do not get it Andres.. Your ignorance is slightly appalling…LKY was never a dictator..NEVER ! It is courtesy to apologise when making such a major blunder. It is like farting in company..Simply not accptable.. It discredits anything else you have t say here
I love it when you are blunt and on MY side. heh heh
When I fart inside an elevator,I will never admit it was me.
Really Bill? I think lets go back first to the “definition” and the “connotation” of a dictator. And if you hate the term “dictator” that much, i am fine with “benevolent dictator” or even “authoritarian.” Now may a take my farting back into my ass. 😀
Andres re ” i am fine with “benevolent dictator” or even “authoritarian.”
An elected leader may be authoritarian. LKY certainly was that.But he was never a dictator. He won the support of the Singapore people with Peope’s Action Party in 1955.And then lead Singapore to Independence and prosperity until he retired an old man in 1996…His PAP always won between 75-83% of the free popular vote over those 40 years. Those are simple facts you can verify. And so LKY was never a dictator, never..Nor was he ever corrupt. It is an insult to the people of Singapore to even suggest it. There have always been opposition parties there and mostly they have failed to win major support from the people. I suspect that the people of Singapore have the Chinese attitude : when you are on a good thing, stick to it.
Now Marcos…Bought votes, was corrupt majorly; oppressed the Filipino people with his martial law dictatorship; stole 10 or so biliion US. Stacked the army with his Ilocano friends & refused to leave or retire even when seriously ill..And bankrupted the country…Really a stupid idiot…
how about LKY as a “benevolent dictator” will you accept it?
I think Bill would call a benevolent dictatorship an ox and a moron.
but he did say he is fine with it.
No, he didn’t. He was quoting Andres in that first line. Bill CAN’T accept the term dictator because LKY was elected, repeatedly. He accepted the term authoritarian president. But NOT dictator. Those advocates of the Singaporean model have to be willing to have their leader stand for re-election periodically.
Ahkk,what is wrong with me? I already understood it the first time.
Bill was indeed quoting Andres,mea culpa.
Spot on Joe & Karl !!
“He accepted the term authoritarian president. But NOT dictator.”
LOL! this struck me as funny! 😉 authoritarian president and dictator ,
“Anyone who clings to the historically untrue—and thoroughly immoral—doctrine that, ‘violence never settles anything’ I would advise to conjure the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.”
– Colonel DuBois, Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein
IMHO the only difference is that Singaporeans followed obediently, where Filipinos did not. But make no mistake they were cut from the same stuff 😉 .
Lee was freely elected every three years by the people of Singapore from 1957 till he retired. He was incorruptible and died honored by all Singaporeans..To say LKY was like Marcos is truly either born of ignorance or an insult
Lee Kuan Yew is not, if he is, then there’s no Singapore where me and my family are based now.
We will see how well Singapore does when it face a crisis. It has had a nice time riding the Asian export boom for many years now.
Hope you are not wishing the worse for us. We are grateful we dont suffer the magnitude of problems like Philippines, most of which are self-inflicted. Natural calamaties we do understand,and most of us say our silent prayers for Philippines in those times. We dont have your natural disasters but then we dont have any of the rich resources your country is blessed with. That is not to say we are trouble free. We have had our share. The British withdrawal East of Eden policy crippled Spore with great loss of employment. The Brit forces contributed substantially to our GDP back then. But we planned well and moved on, gaining confidence along the way. We live under constant pressure of the knowledge that our economy is plugged into the world such that any hiccups somewhere else in the world has serious ramifications on us. Brexit for example has virtually no impact on Phils but we are painfully aware that it could wipe off billions in our investments. Philippines can withstand the turmoil of a dictatorship and many other mis-steps and recover, but for us there is no reset button. Any major mistake we make can wipe us off the map. For those of us who understand the precarious nature of our existence, carries with us a mental strain. That is the reason why, in Lance somewhat condescending words, Singaporeans are obedient.
Ahhh Chempo Singapore has made allies in all the needed places, and invested wisely in it’s people via education and fluency in an international language, English, that ensures you are always part of the Anglosphere..
And the natural rebels among your people have tended to migrate elsewhere where they can express themselves more freely…Like the UK & Australia..And thus also become embasadors for Singapore overseas.
Now it seems to me reading this conversations that even in definitions of terms has a political tone to it which to me is quite amusing, :).
‘Dictator’ was invented by the Romans in the republic period long before the emperors existed. For then it meant a man who was nominated by the Senate and people to rule for 6 months during an emergency…The itle comes from Diceo/dicere.. ‘to tell’ implying ‘someone who tells us what to do, gives the orders’.
I can stack him up against dozens of others. And keep in mind Singapore is a strategically located port city that has nothing in common with any other locale save Hong Kong.
Oh but there are many others. There is Panama canal. Then there is Cape Horn. And the busiest port in the world for ever since I can remember – Rotterdam. And with air transportation, anybody can become a great hub. Look at what Dubai has created for themselves.
Anger. I feel so much anger because of Brexit, Trump’s and many of Duterte’s statements. Is it helping or hindering my thinking that can clear confusion?
Brexit the uneducated and poor in the UK might have been right, all benefits from economic growth ended up by the 1% and some by the educated with better jobs. Borders and less globalization, less influx of cheap labor, reduced race to the bottom, all this might help the bottom even if the corporations and the well-off will lose a lot.
Trump, isn’t breaking up the “elite” a good thing? Is American politics 100% controlled by big money? Aren’t the Trump voters correct in being angry about their loss of income, loss in wealth, loss in influence?
Isn’t Duterte on the same cloud? Will the poor not always be poor unless you can break the current system? The dynasties and their traditions leading to perpetual power?
Or is it all cheap politics, alfa males fighting for control? Bye bye civility, bye bye rationality?
Who has the good arguments?
Well, the diagnosis is fairly straightforward, the “confidence of the dumb”. The solution is something else, and probably requires a charismatic leader with a profound sense of good and how to present it. The internet gives rebels the way to unify, and they need not haul the aristocrats off to the guillotine in front of the cheering masses, they just get on line and execute them with slanders and righteous indignity.
*******
You know how one sees a beautiful woman or a handsome man, and one sees a flaw — it may be a mole, a tic, or the words that come out — that mars the good looks?
It’s like that with me for Duterte.
It’s not even that he fits the template of being a president for me, although I will grant he may become a transformational one.
But his contempt for due process, the nonobservance of inaugural traditions, the disrespect for the vice presidency, and the intended desecration of holy burial grounds — all of these are deep flaws beyond which I cannot see.
*****
The end justifies the means. But what will be the end? What will be the consequence of “his contempt for due process, the nonobservance of inaugural traditions, the disrespect for the vice presidency, and the intended desecration of holy burial grounds” and the entombment of civility?
The message that one can ignore flawed democratic processes, no need to improve them? That traditions as a form of respect and thus all forms of respect can be neglected? That the little varnish of civil behavior is just that, a varnish, better to go back to the primitive behavior of unrestricted alfa males?
But he offers the end to drugs, crimes and corruption… Peace with the left, the Moros, the Chinese… Improve traffic, service of officials… Doesn’t this exceed the value of the previous items? Yes, when he achieves all this a 100%. But what with 90%, 50%… 10%? Where is the breaking point? What level of achievement is most likely? Do we have historic lessons?
(Luckily there is Sheng Shui as explained this morning in a 20 min item this morning on ANC… We can all live in peace as Dragons and Roosters will lead us to a better future.)
Joe,
1. trolls— I don’t think he has control over this. it’s the internet forchrissakes! and DU30 tends to go viral, he’s gotta lot of one liners… why Roxas doesn’t or didn’t chose to go viral is a better question. DU30 is in his 70s , I don’t think he’s hip to the whole trolling landscape, which I’m sure most are bots not individuals.
2. as for the burying of Marcos, it’s literally putting a problem to rest. instead of having a body there lie in repose for eternity just causing friction, put the issue to bed already, out of sight out of mind… Marcos after all is a veteran.
3. communists or socialists in gov’t, hey the same thing’s happening over here with Bernie (everyone’s feeling the Bern!), Warren looks like she’ ll be VP to appease Bernietards 😉 (LOL! I’m one) , the pendulum’s swung, we tried ultra capitalism now people are ready for socialism, especially after EU, NAFTA, etc. etc. don’t blame socialists (and communists) for this trend, the capitalists pooped on everyone’s plates 😉 …
as for Muslims in DU30’s cabinet, his going thru the Sulu Sultanate to get to Sabah garner’s DU30 some mean street creds.
4. Gina Lopez, IMHO is killing two birds with one stone, ABS and environmentalism, like Pres. Teddy Roosevelt meeting up with John Muir. it’s beautiful!
5. as for the press, won’t the inauguration be televised? briefings have always been “controlling the message”, same over here! (same in the Middle East, East Asia when the US military controlled the comings and goings of the press) hence good reporters find their own lead—- this I’m with you on, the press over there sucks ass big time because it doesn’t dig deep enough. but if they do eventually choose to do real journalism, they’ll not need press passes… dig!
DU30 ‘s move re Ms. Lopez gives you a clue to how DU30 intends to “control” the press (press should also be in quotations 😉 )
6. as for anger… i’m pretty sure that’s what got DU30 elected, so in a manner of speaking anger united the electorate in giving DU30 a clear mandate, 40% of a 5 candidate race is a clear mandate… a mandate based on anger.
Joe, “I be understandin’ President Duterte.” and I ain’t no jive talkin’ turkey neither !!! LOL! 😉
🙂
1. His staff directs the effort. It is powerful.
2. Rationalization used by pro-burial advocates. Those opposed are offended to the core of their value system, that this is what a hero in their nation represents.
3. The capitalists enriched a lot of thankless people.
4. Agree.
5. It is a matter of respect for the profession of journalism and what it represents to democracy, just as many of us are exercising a will of civility to respect the Office of the President and the person duly elected to fill the job. He ought to be able to give as well as receive, I think.
6. Agree.
1. I’d like to see more proof (that this is staff directed, and not fan/crowd sourced… ie. if staff, how are these minions paid? who’s directing them? are they in China or in Mindanao? etc. etc.)
2. What’s the other option, Joe, lie in repose for eternity? IMHO whoever allowed Marcos back into the country should be blamed… but at this point that’s neither here nor there, something needs to be done, what are other options?
3. Lots of towns in Michigan and Ohio would disagree, Pennsylvania too. I don’t know if you were still here in 2008, Joe, but that housing/finance industry collapse kicked a lot of people’s butts— I don’t think its recovered under Obama, maybe the bleeding was stopped, but a lot of people are still down and out. Interestingly, its the Web 2.0 bubble that’s contributed to the hardship in CA ($5,000 for an apartment in SF to SJ corridor, have created ghettoes in northern San Joaquin Valley).
“enriched” is an understatement to most 😉 … I think this is where the Roxas campaign also failed— it was this same sentiment that pissed people off, ie. you’re rich, you just don’t know it, LOL! and we have dogs who think they are humans 😉 that will set people off.
5. Joe, so the inauguration will be televised, correct?
As for press briefings, maybe he’ll play favorites, same with Obama and FOX, also Bill Maher’s show, https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/ask-president-obama-appear-hbos-real-time-bill-maher (so even over here, Presidents play favourites 😉 8 years of presidency, w/ Bill Maher donating $1 million to Obama in 2012, not sure how much he donated for 2008, and Obama can’t make an appearance, c’mon… there’s no excuse. So it happens here too, Joe)
#1 maybe you have missed this.
that’s what I’m trying to figure out here, karl… how much of it is organized and how much is organic, volunteer/fan driven.
“1. His staff directs the effort. It is powerful.” Joe’s answer implies organization, when the article you’ve posted hints at crowd-sourced type operation.
So which is it, and what’s the proof? ie. IP addresses (like those Chinese trolls), concerted efforts (i’ve not noticed any more Dutertards since the election posting here), post-election coordination (how it’s being coordinated now, post election), etc. etc.
Your guess is as good as mine.
That’s my point, why go the conspiracy theory route, when this is more a social media phenomena and backed by a 40% mandate out of a 5 candidate race… isn’t more a case of his popularity and passion bleeding into social media, than this cyber capability stuff Joe’s attributing here?
I remember American Idol had a big problem with Filipino-American contestants exactly because Filipinos knew how to use social media, it was skewing the vote/talent ratio.
Simon Cowell scoffed at it,
That is Simon Cowell and AI’s problem.
Hehe
karl, my point is that Filipino’s love social media, so why not just attribute it to that?
I not be understanding you Lance, Social media can work for the American Idol,but not the elections? It does not compute.
Come on Karl voting on american idol is free while voting in the elections requires payment. I’d also like to make everyone remember that around a few million dollars were spent when Jessica was gunning for american idol. People who don’t understand how gullible Filipinos are do not understand Filipinos
D’s Popularity has peaked and what a slide. Based on the graph.
😉😜
karl,
The American Idol reference was meant to illustrate how Filipino involvement via virtual participation (call in, no? not really social media IMHO). So why the need to attribute some sort of centralized command, ie. DU30’s social media machine—- when Filipinos get riled up they will text and message , you don’t need some social media guru to coordinate… that’s my point, karl. 😉
You need to tell that to President Duterte’s communication staff then, because there IS an organized program. The manager (Nic Gabunada) thanked me for my recent blog on the subject and has invited me to have coffee with him. I expect to do that in a few weeks.
Plus you have dropped so many “my points” that my head is spinning.
Pretty soon, Joe, you’d be invited as a consultant on media and communications. No surprise there.
Does that pay? ahahaha
You must charge, if they do. It will help the IRS 😉 Lol.
🙂
Lance,
Scroll up and read your own comment again,call ins are the means of voting, but “knowing to use social media” implies a different matter.
karl,
this is what I’m questioning, and even Joe himself has acquiesced… which I’m reading as conspiracy theory, anti-DU30 bias, which is cool in and of itself… 😉
“1. His staff directs the effort. It is powerful.”
Let us say the expert only has ten staff and not thousands.
It only takes one video and meme to be viral.
you already acknowledged bots.
ok this will be ended here.
karl,
then it’s not a machine.
when we talk of a machine whether social media or hackers, we’re speaking similar to China’s or any 1st rate nation’s cyber capability… a few guys that know how to make a viral video or meme, isn’t that powerful, or a machine—- it’s simply Filipinos being Filipinos they just love texting and messaging and stuff.
that’s my point. 😉
“You need to tell that to President Duterte’s communication staff then, because there IS an organized program. The manager (Nic Gabunada)”
Joe, that there is a communications staff doing social media stuff I’m not questioning that (why wouldn’t they?), I’m questioning the assumption that this “machine” was what got DU30 elected, now will be used nefariously—- in fairness you’ve walked that back (ie. “some of your questions are unanswerable”), but gian was pursuing it.
My skepticism is on record. 😉
Right, your skepticism is on record. By the way, I didn’t walk anything back. I said we don’t have information.
“1. His staff directs the effort. It is powerful.”
‘splain to me “powerful” and “machine” then, Joe… how do you justify using these words? 😉 if you lack info…
I read and live . . . in the Philippines. This discussion has grown tedious. The election is over. There is a social media program. I leave you with your opinions.
Whoa, Joe👍. Right call.
Timely call Joe….whoa 👍
Yep.
@LG, roger that.
con·spir·a·cy the·o·ry
noun
a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
In this case DU30 communications staff, but since you’re seeing him soon (beware of DDS 😉 ) , please ask for further info and re-visit this issue.
Joe, you were sensationalizing DU30’s social media campaign as something on steroids (‘roid rage if you will), now you have ‘splain. 😉 How was it different from all other social media campaigns either for politics or advertising? Why should Filipinos fear it?
I’m reminded of Men in Black, the close, as K is turning things over to J. K says “Be seeing you around”, and J responds, somewhat wistfully, just before zapping K with the memory eraser . . .
“. . . no . . . you won’t.”
Cut to now:
LCX: “. . . now you have to ‘splain”
JA: “No . . . . I don’t.”
Then it’s conspiracy theory then , Joe! The very thing you detest from Philippine media. You’ve sensationalized it as means to confirm your bias 😉 .
Fine don’t ‘splain, but your social media machine is just too sensational to defend is the main take away.
Take it away. Indeed, run like the wind with it.
DU30 ‘s social media scare is w/out merit.
I refer you to Micha and Mike’s exchange.
this IMHO is the main take-away of that exchange re trolls and social media,
Mike says:
June 22, 2016 at 7:20 pm
“Thanks Joe. I appreciate that. May I say that in contrast to Duterte’s social media team which was organized in 2013, Mar’s own team was formed in November 2015.”
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
1. Look around. A number of articles have been done on it, you can review the activity trends yourself. Some of your questions are not answerable, I suspect. But you can confirm for yourself that it is an organized program, and I don’t have to be your errand boy.
2. You are entitled to want him buried with real heroes. Many don’t.
3. You aren’t rich, with education and opportunity? I am, and had a nice career, too.
5. Yes, it will be televised, but banning live journalists blocks inquiring voices and eyes and makes it a controlled, contrived event not subject to the “people’s eyes and ears”, through the press. I’m not really concerned with what is happening in the US. I’m worried about here.
1. Didn’t Mar Roxas also have a social-media team? Why wasn’t his as capable, maybe that should be the question here, not that DU30 ‘s is too good. 😉
2. What are other options aside from in repose for eternity?
3. I’m neither rich nor educated (but I have a Phd in Google 😉 ) , though I have tons of opportunities, but not because I’m tied to the finance or real estate or internet sectors , my area of expertise can exist within a capitalist or socialist model, hell any form of gov’t or no gov’t for that matter 😉
I suspect this is the reason I can better understand DU30 supporters and even DU30 himself, not being rich nor educated.
5. I’m pretty sure, an inauguration isn’t the time to ask questions, Joe. 😉
As for press briefings, its bs … overrated (I saw these first hand in the ME)… I like Bill Maher’s format, that’s probably why Obama won’t come on.
I’ll say one of my social media hypothesis to the rescue.
I call this the Social Media Entropy.
Just like real entropy social media belief has a natural flow through it.
It is easier to make people believe someone is stupid/epal/etc than they are.
It is easier to destroy than to create.
hey, gian!
Are you familiar with chatbots? This one has a funny story: https://twitter.com/tayandyou
But seriously, I think why DU30 trolls are so especially “rude” is because many of them are bots, and when 60 somethings interact with them , it’s the perfect storm.
yes that is very possible.
Bots can be outwitted if you know how they work…
This is a particularly funny example from today…
1. I didn’t whine that Duterte’s was “too good”, but said that it was organized and powerful, and in the official version when he is President can either do good or do propaganda. The machine spread a lot of dirt and deceit during the campaign. Roxas had no idea that social media could be used that way, as a bludgeoning club, I suspect. His holding off on starting his effort was typical of his humility, not wanting to be presumptuous that he would be the candidate. If that is weakness, then it only confirms that he lost because of integrity, to a force that displayed little.
2. See comment of James de Valera.
3. Those are the kinds of riches derived from a capitalist democracy, many intangible, that most fail to see.
5. I like a free press. I majored in a form of journalism, worked in the news trade for a time, and believe an open press has an important role to play. Constraining it is offensive.
3. Which kinds, Joe? Most of what I enjoy, are the same stuff enjoyed by Americans in the 50s—- 1850s. Intangibles based on community not corporations. Most intangibles we enjoy don’t derive from corporations. 😉
1. As for Roxas not being prepared, what else would he not have done his homework on? Go big or go home 😉 No preparation is not excuse for anything, Joe— if he truly was serious he’d have prepared.
5. I agree w/ you re Press, but even the US plays favorite, so your ideal isn’t fixed is my point. I ‘m sure DU30 will use the press, but he’ll not be slave to the Hearst system of media.
3. Big subject.
1. Okay.
5. We’ll see.
Also remember that it was Roxas’ to lose. And DU30 technically was the underdog, no media no family name no Manila connections, etc. So DU30 was fighting with one hand tied, so it makes sense that he maximized social media —- I suspect it wasn’t Roxas’ “integrity” but hubris that he already had media, money & Manila under his belt.
I think you totally mis-characterize it, but the campaign is over, and Roxas lost. On that, I will agree with you.
I’m simply offering a different lens, Joe. I may be wrong.
May I butt in.
5. My gut feel on why there will be no press during the inauguration. Duterte is makalat. He likes to adlib, has one liners galore, with an ex-wife, a common-law-wife, a very young daughter ( although this one is not tactless, i think. Not like GMA’s grandaughter who shouted from a van at an ambush interview, “my lola will be president forever!!!”. That girl wasn’t even 7 years old if I’m not mistaken), and a few personalities like Yasay and Panelo. Put those together in one room and the “press” will pick-up something to sensationalize.
Not to mention, what people are wearing or not wearing, the “press” considers news nowadays 🙂
I think its like we are seeing the inauguration as it is, no press summary after every statement, no testimony by invited experts or professors from time to time. Like seeing a basketball game without commentators, a bit boring but thats it. Some worries that PTV4 will cut the “swearings” of Duterte, lol.
Or maybe, like Trump over here, DU30 feels he can by-pass the Press. The onus here is on the Press to be relevant. “Sensationalize” is the keyword. And from the looks of it, the public seems in line with DU30, no? 😉
For Chrissake, Joe. You had it right a long ways back on this thread…” This discussion has grown tedious”. Nuff already. If the threads and subthreads on this topic were water, this blogsite would be guilty of waterboarding…hehehe.
🙂 Only one subthread had grown tedious to me, and it has now spread like those vines in the neighbors unkempt yard . . .
No. 2. Should have no option at all & not open for discussion or negotiation, if Marcos is my father I will officially apologise to Filipinos like what the PM of Australia did to the abused of the aboriginal people so that the country can finally moved on.
Why not bury him Ilocos? That’s where he truly belong, where he came from & maintain the significant numbers of his loyalist in that region.
Yeah, but you’re not seeing the pragmatics of DU30’s decision, James, burials are burials… this one he gets to bury an age old problem and also appease a still relevant political block.
DU30’s calculations is that the Aquino family, after PNoy won’t much matter in Philippine politics in the long run—- hence Bam Aquino’s sabbatical to Jordan is necessary 😉 .
I think that view is questionable. Aquino will slowly transform to elder statesmen status.
Also Bam is a big supporter of E-SPORTS.
Start of June we saw the DOTA2 Manila Majors. A big reason this was successful was Sen Bam’s support.
The Philippines has around 1.6M active DOTA2 players. the 3rd largest in the world. This is only one game. If you add most gaming constituencies I’d say we are approaching Roxas’ vote count.
Add in the the Hard Yellows, and the Thinking Filipinos we have a sizeable chunk that can get Bam elected.
No need for the macho bears gryllis stuff.
Of that 1.6M, how many do you think voted for DU30, gian? Of that same 1.6M, how many volunteered as these DU30 trolls?
I seriously doubt your reading of the gaming populace (sorry, gian), if these folks are the same as over here, they’ll respond to gut arguments, and emotional pleas, no difference really between gamers and those who watch wrestling—
sure you’ll have exceptions in the curve, but pound for pound, just because Bam plays computer games doesn’t mean gamers will vote for him. 😉
I’d say solidly half couldn’t vote. because of age restrictions and probably a quarter didn’t register.
The gut feeling is important.
What you are missing is that Bam was the campaign manager of Leni.
His wife is an Advertising executive.
Leni’s social media campaign was superb.
I agree gamers respond to gut feel. And that is why I believe bam can win because he is one of the senators who knows how to play the social media game.
That’s fine, so half of that 1.6M who could vote, as stated,
how many do you think voted for DU30? and trolled for him? Guess-timate here.
As for equating gaming to being VP Robredo’s social media campaign manager.
If Bam was so superb, why didn’t his social media expertise extend to Mar Roxas’ campaign, weren’t they the same ticket?
Something’s not quite right, gian. 😉 social media and gaming are two separate things, though I admit one can be adept at both.
But why’s Joe saying Roxas late start aided in his losing, but here you’re saying it helped Leni’s under Bam? Explain.
Yes.
It seems the mini controversy of lots of Leni supporters not actively supporting Roxas just went past you.
My point is that social media’s role is minimal at best, though Joe likes to make a big deal of it. 😉
As for Bam’s mastery of social media, I doubt it. Base on his fb account, it’s nothing mind-blowing, I’ve not noticed anything viral.
I dont know. I walk around malls a lot and I eavesdrop on conversations here and there. What strikes me is the high degree of misinformation that was prevalent.
I heard a lot of people saying why vote for someone who drinks water from a plate.
I heard this probably more than a hundred times.
Where did all these misinformation come from?
Also you are really not that familiar with the power of social media lance.
brush up on the topic.
Look at the parallels with the brexit campaign.
“What strikes me is the high degree of misinformation that was prevalent.”
Misinformation is fine, gian, I wasn’t expecting everyone over there to be the most informed.
But DU30 won 40% of the votes in a 5 candidate race—- that is a big chunk. You can’t attribute misinformation to this 40% … it’s akin to calling the majority of your peeeps retards. They had reason(s) to vote DU30 that wasn’t dependent on social media is my point. 😉
What are other factors, you think?
“Also you are really not that familiar with the power of social media lance.”
Yes , in BREXIT I think it played a big role. But of the 40% who voted DU30 into office how many do you think had social media playing a big part of their lives? You are not accounting for the full 40% in your conclusion is my point. (maybe NHerrera can break down the numbers here)
As for Bam Aquino being a social media guru (like saying I’m a Google guru) , there’s no evidence of it. 😉
“It seems the mini controversy of lots of Leni supporters not actively supporting Roxas just went past you.”
Same with how this great social media machine worked for DU30 but not Cayetano, no? 🙂 Think about that.
Like I said social media played a minimal role— maybe larger in some population groups, but over-all, not that significant— something bigger was in play… again 40% of the electorate, gian (think about that). That’s a big chunk in which to attribute sole social media capture, which you seem to be doing… I don’t buy it. 😉
http://blog.ted.com/i-am-british-alexander-betts-at-tedsummit/
Social media is the catalyst of the post-factualist world. In a chemical reaction the catalyst is a very small percentage by weight mass etc but it produces outsized effects. You are seeing a nuclear explosion and dismissing the social media nuclear material. It is too small for you. Well its not the size. Do not discount second order and third order effects. What was done would be similar to what Goebbels did during the 30s and 40s
gian, I totally understand that… but my point was of the 40% electorate that voted for DU30 (low C then DE crowd), how many of those are truly dependent on social media for opinion? I’m pretty sure they get their opinions from the radio, not even TV, much less social media…
that’s my point, gian. That social media is a force to be reckon with, I totally agree, but in the 3rd world, the calculus is much different.
Are you saying that these low C to D and E crowds are spending their times in internet cafes, carrying around smart phones, etc.—- I think not, gian. 😉 and there’s the rub.
I am just factoring in free Facebook in all networks and the 888 pesos smartphone.
I also get what you are trying to say.
Truth be told I am still trying to parse the relative strengths, the interactions, trying to find the positive and negative feedback loops between Public Sentiment – Social Media – Traditional Media. Etc
They, the, you called p, low C and DE, I think, simply went with the street and media noise – the ‘raised clenched fist’- strong punisher image ala Dirty Harry.
gian,
I would add to that list, genuine disappointment in government—- that needs no sort of media to affirmation, gian.
Remember a big chunk of your OFWs (your new heroes 😉 , same ones whose boxes get ransacked, bullets inserted, kids exposed to corruption/criminality, etc. ) they voted for DU30—-
I’m not sure if they are participating in Philippine social media day in and day out, I’m sure they are working their butts off, but being out there (not inside Philippines) I think they were operating from a totally different paradigm, disconnected from the Philippine interaction.
IMHO study the OFW ‘s support for DU30 and you’ll get closer to figuring out why Filipinos voted clearly for DU30. 😉
Well OFW have an inflated sense of selfworth and unhealthy expectations on their government. This was then brought to a super heated firebomb by the social media in cahoots with the traditional media.
9 women will not make having a baby only 1 month long.
Damn these impatient fucks.
LOL! So much for the new heroes, gian!
Okay I am not singling out OFWs.
I am singling out the impatient Filipinos.
Not knowing anything about development and how fucking long it takes.
You should definitely have been Mar Roxas communications director, gian, this one would definitely have gone viral, for sure… or since we’re talking ebonics now, fo’ sho’! fo’ sho’!
“OFWs unrealistic sense of self and asks too much of their government”
LOL!
Gian re “Damn these impatient fucks.”
I disagree with you.. I think Filipinos are by nature among the most patient people in the world …I know this from direct experience..
And this patient nature has been used against less well off Filipinos by the rich to postpone the changes needed to achieve a decent standard of living for all…
But when Filipinos go overseas as OFW’s or migrants to more prosperous countries,and see what life is like there, there comes a realisation and a sense of embrressment & shame.. And then real IMPATIENCE for change at home for their families and relatives..
And guess what they are all armed with smart phones..
Information without knowledge is useless Bill.
Do they understand the process that the nations they went through to become successful?
Is this not the impatience of the uninformed?
“The confidence of the dumb” as I wrote in a blog.
“DU30’s calculations is that the Aquino family, after PNoy won’t much matter in Philippine politics in the long run…”—Lance
That’s possible, Lance, but very much wishful thinking on the part of Pres. Duterte if that’s really his calculation. President Noynoy had established already a solid positive niche in the history of Philippine politics while Duterte has not even started yet and the way things are looking from the perspective of thinking observers, there are so much grey areas ahead of his administration that could stoke much optimism unless one is a rabid supporter.
I don’t know about the Aquino family, but I think that President Noynoy’s legacy will provide him the aura to last very long in Philippine politics. It’s too early at this time to think otherwise, in my opinion.
I hope President Duterte lasts very long also, but all depend on how he govern the nation after July 1.
I agree Bert it’s a gamble. But realistically aside from legacy, they only have Bam Aquino as the next guy waiting … are there others, as promising? (hence send him on hiatus to Jordan for some sort of passage rite to become a man).
Bam will need images like this (how’s that for viral social media image… 😉 ) ,
You’re right, Lance, Bam Aquino is still a bit raw, may gatas pa sa labi (karl, translation pls.). “….are there others, as promising?”, well, I was thinking, the next guy waiting is none other than…dyaraaaan…Noynoy Aquino himself, :).” You know, Lance, I can feel an air of volatility in this coming administration the conspiracy theorist in me come to fore at times although quite too complicated to think about so can’t explain. President Duterte should learn how to walk the tight rope. Noynoy Aquino is still young to be counted out just yet, and as they say ‘you cannot put a good man down’ or something to that effect, who knows.
Anyway, I think that the 2022 presidential election, if it comes to that, will be between Leni Robredo and Bongbong Marcos, but that’s beside the point.
Still has milk in the lips
Bert, won’t there be some legal issues, if PNoy runs again? Can he run again?
There’s a precedent, Lance. Former president Gloria Arroyo ran as congresswoman, won, and now legally a sitting congresswoman. I think he can legally run for any position lower than president but not sure about that. If you’re asking whether he can legally run for president again my answer would be no. My conspiracy theory statement was not based on any legal issue but rather solely on some unforeseen occurrence that may require contingency and necessary steps as asked for by such an event if ever. It’s so scary to contemplate but there is that possibility. That’s why I said President Duterte should learn how to walk the tight rope.
ERap,too.
They can run,but cannot hide.I mean not for the presidency until charter change.
That’s just weird, Bert. Why downgrade to a lesser position, wouldn’t running your own foundation or business be more apt? Are there Presidential Libraries?
Bam Aquino IMHO is the only guy left, you guys just need to toughen him a bit. 😉
Will not happen here, Lance. Politics here is more lucrative than business or foundation or Presidential Libraries what ever that means, hehehe. So politicians here stick to politics, including their sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, etc., etc., :).
As to Bam Aquino, well, we the electorates do not have the power to toughen him up, he has to do it to himself himself. Either he has it or don’t, and that’s his problem. And, anyway, to us ordinary voters, Bam is not the only guy left, there are others, not necessarily an Aquino, to me and to many others, Leni Robredo is already tough enough.
Aaaaaahhh Gian, this is what the elites say about the working class people of Britain vote for Brexit.. It’s what is being said about the USA poor whites supporting Trump….It’s what said about Marie Le Pen’s voting supporters in France etc etc etc etc..( Including in Oz)
The role of an elite is to look after the nation..All the nation…In whichever nation they are. That is a great trust..And if the less well off decide that that their trust has been abused or taken advantage of.. Well watch out ..they will vote with their gut feelings..that’s being human mate…Duterte got the benefit of that.in May
@Joe, Re “the confidence of the dumb’
That betrays an elitist, ‘I know better ‘ attitude to the demos, the massa, the people. It is but a short step from there to contempt for the people.. such as left wing ideologues commonly do..
Let’s not be such here..
Gadzooks! Do you always draw such sweeping conclusions from headlines? Look up the blog. Read the whole thing.
Masses gave only a 5 percent lead to Duterte
The ABC crowd gave about 20++ percent lead for Duterte .
This is more of an education and values thing Bill.
Trump – White American Male anger
Brexit – Old folks wanting to stop immigrants
Duterte – People wanting their Property Rights defended against crimes.
Gian, you have just illustrated my point.. Thank you
“Do they understand the process that the nations they went through to become successful?” Most won’t.
I didn’t really understand much the first years over here, I just consumed the benefits.
I’m sorry to say this but you seem to deny the fact that DU30 just have an army of legit supporters whod go the extra mile to flaunt their support to the world, may it be through social media or actual gatherings. If you’ve been checking the right resources, you would be aware that he was able to rally millions of supporters all at the same time from Luzon , Visayas, and Mndanao during his meeting de avance.. Luneta alone had almost a million supporters flooding Luneta Park with people beyond its capacity then there’s Cebu and Davao who also gather as much. That alone is a statement that the supporters are actually active in supporting DU30, which greatly mirrors his popularity in social media. No rocket science there, no conspiracy theory, just his supporters trying to voice out for their presidential candidate. Also, majority of his supporters are from the masa section. Did it ever occur toyou that majority of filipinos belong to the masa.. So why wonder? What does not add up? Can’t you just accept the fact that he has organic interactions in facebook which are manned by real and legit facebook accounts? He may have a social media manager for his page, which is actually necessary because the president doesn’t even use a smartphone. However, that doesnt mean they give mandate to a paid army to “troll” or engage in a social media interaction with non supporters. I work as an SEO person, and Social Media management is simply maintaining an account’s visibility in Social Media for promotion and info dissemination. It;s not used to gather a flock of people to “mandate” them to create millions of fake accounts to make something go viral (this trick doesnt work you know). Those people yoou see in socialmedia are simply individuals trying to voice out their opinions. tsk..
You guys sound like old people from the medieval age who doesn’t know a thing about computer, and will shout “virus” when something goes wrong with their computer. Or maybe you guys are just trapped in the prisons of denial. Elections over, he won. He got the vote of 40% of the voter’s population in a 5 candidate presidential race.. So why not give credit to the fact that it’s the real people who are actually talking about him in Social Media? You guys may be old, but I sure am young enough to know how Social Media works, and no it’s impossible to make an army of fake accounts to make something go viral, it’s not sustainable.. And from what we’re seeing now, DU30 still continues to trend after months of election. It is what it is.. he just have a lot of highlty engaged legit supporters with legit facebook accounts. *smh*
Well, reyserve, rather than wade in and draw conclusions on the basis of one article you disagree with, or even a trend, why don’t you do President Duterte a favor and stick around to represent the moderate, well-meaning, non-trollish supporter of the President of the Philippines. I think you are correct that we take the extremists on-line as too representative of the whole group of supporters, and that is unfair. In saying that, I hope you would also see that it is those extremists who are poisoning his well, and seek to moderate their greater excesses. The Philippines is not a land of Filipinos and non-Filipinos, it is a land of Filipinos of different values, backgrounds, and life’s conditions. They ought to talk to one another civilly, as you have done, and not lob bombs at one another that stoke the angers and, indeed, the mistaken stereotypes. And if they are going to respect each other, they ought not be lying to one another or slapping labels, either direction.
Re #3 Sabah Claim.
Here is what the Malaysian media feel about it.
http://www.nst.com.my/news/2016/06/149421/dutertes-sabah-claim-nothing-fret-about
karl,
I agree w/ Malaysia its nothing to fret about, but it’s the fact that DU30 is going thru the Sulu Sultanate that matters…
the padjak claim is analogous to the Philippines claim in the South China Sea , largely symbolic, but needed to keep the issue going as an actual chip on the proverbial bargaining table. 😉
His reviving of Tausugs is significant re Sabah. More so than his claim of Maranao blood, and his grandkids Maranao-Tausug ancestry.
Speaking of South China Sea, last month he was adamant that it is ours.That coincided with his revival of Sabah Claim.Now we have to wait a few more days for updates.
http://www.mb.com.ph/duterte-insists-west-ph-sea-sabah-territories-belong-to-ph/
karl, these Filipino newspaper links sets off my laptop and then freezes the whole window—- too much ads, I think.
can you just copy/paste the crux of the articles? thanks.
a wait and see, especially post-election seems healthy to me.
Yeah to muchs ads and the video that autoplays don’t help either.
it is just short, I will copy everything.
Duterte insists West PH Sea, Sabah territories belong to PH
by Rocky Nazareno
May 26, 2016
Incoming president Rodrigo Duterte appears in a press conference at a hotel in Davao City shortly before midnight on Wednesday and lasted for two hours.(MB Photo/ KEITH BACONGCO)
Incoming president Rodrigo Duterte appears in a press conference at a hotel in Davao City shortly before midnight on Wednesday and lasted for two hours.(MB Photo/ KEITH BACONGCO)duterte
Davao City – Incoming president Rodrigo Duterte turned his tough talk on China and Malaysia as he maintained that the Philippines would assert its claims over disputed territories in the West Philippine Sea and Sabah.
“Whether you want to believe it or not, that is beside the point. The point is, that is ours,” Duterte said in a press conference early Thursday.
He was referring to territories in the Spartly Islands located in the West Philippine Sea which were claimed by China when the Asian giant established structures in some of the islands.
China has been maintaining that the disputed areas fall within the “nine-dotted line” which it asserts as its territory. But the Philippines has challenged this claim in the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, and said that China violated the United Nation Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS, on exclusive economic zones and territorial seas.
“It is a question that the (disputed territories) are well within the 200-kilometer exclusive economic zone of the country. You put something there that would obstruct or impede our movement in the exercise of that right, it’s a violation of our rights and the law of the seas,” Duterte asserted.
He said he had raised this issue with Chinese Ambassador Zhao Jianhua when the latter paid him a courtesy call here last week.
“I told (Zhao), whether you like it or not, that’s ours. The least you can do since it is in the arbitration stage, you might want to allow our brother-fishermen (to fish in the area),” Duterte said.
Zhao had earlier said he was particularly struck when the incoming Philippine president raised the issue about the fishermen who have been seriously affected by the long-running dispute between the two countries which clearly “demonstrated his concern for the poor people.”
Duterte’s assertion that the international law of the seas should be followed in settling the dispute actually ran counter to what Zhao said was the incoming president’s willingness to get into direct bilateral negotiations with China.
SABAH CLAIM
Duterte likewise maintained that his administration “will stick to our claim” on Sabah.
“We are allowing proprietary heirs to talk (with Malaysia). Since it is part of our claim, it will be there as our land,” he said.
The last 3 sentences are key, and goes back to me and Bert’s talk about threesome with a mean/mature women & a young/innocent co-ed… do you remember which article that was, karl?
GMA attempted a love affair with China, now DU30 will attempt a threesome. Whether it becomes a love affair of three, or a heart break for all, remains to be seen 😉 .
Nope,
Who are you doing the threesome with?
here it is, https://joeam.com/2016/04/20/mayor-duterte-and-china-a-demand-for-transparency/#comment-172481 😉
Use uBlock Origin for either Chrome or Firefox. Your laptop will thank you for it.
will do this, thanks mad! 🙂
If the Philippines wants trouble in Jolo & other muslim areas of Mindanao, there is an easy way to get it : revive the archaic claim to Sabah.
Sabah has a population of over 1 million now and has been part of Malaysia since 1963 – 51 years. It is far better organised, and more prosperous than the Philippines; It is mostly muslim and now mostly bahasa Malaysia speaking. The Philippines claim to Sabah there has no local support in Sabah at all.
Malaysian media will of course pick up Duterte reference to Sabah..And analyse it to bits..It’s a good uniting distraction to the PM’S Najib Razak’s huge corruption scandle
Correction ! Wikipedia says the population of Sabah is now 3.5 million with approximately 700,000 muslims who have migrated because of work opportunities or fled from the insurgency in Mindanao in the Philippines….Very interesting
It balances off the Maguindanao hold, bill. it’s genius really.
Tausugs and Maranaws are pound for pound more educated. You’re playing with fire when you deal exclusively with Maguindanao, though they control the SW portion of Mindanao proper.
Those 700,000 Mindanao Moro migrants helping to keep the Sabah economy going are not OFWs in the strict, regulated sense; at lot of them are weekend commuters–the Tawi islands are just a few hours away by pumpboat. Others work for a few months in Sabah, then return home for a bit before going back. Incidentally, when word of Duterte’s statements on Sabah came out, the local government did the usual and clamped down on traders coming in from the Sulu Archipelago. So Duterte did those Mindanao traders no favors there with his words. (And words—profane words, self-contradictory words, motherhood statements like today–are all we have just yet. Starting today we can keep a running tally of actions matching words. Or not.)
Reading the Wikipedia entry is interesting…Migration is a sensitive issue there.. Previous state governments gave Malaysian citizenship to many Moro migrants to Sabah.. to make it more Muslim…And they are not pro Filipino now…
And you re dead right about the Malaysian response to Du30’s comments..He needs to shut up & learn before opening his mouth… But then he is 72 and getting on in life.. we old timers tend to engage the brain after opening the mouth :- )
We are all rapidly aging under the new dispensation, Bill in Oz. 🙂
Ha, ha, ha…. !!! :- )
Typing one fingered with my left hand slows me down somewhat.
now Sabah has more than 15% Filipinos comprise its population,little by little they are deporting them.
But just like any other richer nation,they need some one to do the dirty work for them.Will they build a wall like Trump’s proposal?
Like I said karl, there’ll be no Sabah invasion ala Marcos… the point is to raise the Tausugs again, and the Maranaos (this one based on DU30’s affinity), thus marginalizing the Maguindanaos— less educated means they are more prone to Salafi teachings. 😉
How would you propose to do that?
Why does one segment need to be marginalized in such a proposal?
As per the Islamic Renaissance article, too much preference has been focused on the Maguindanaos, Ligawasan Marsh for example 😉 ,
marginalize may not be the best word, but what I’m getting at here is some sort of re-balancing act. Where Maguindanaos were preferred (ex. Cojuangcos), now under DU30, back to Tausugs and Maranaos.
clearer.
Maguindanao and Maranao were pissed off after the first peace agreement was signed by the MNLF, and its chief and first ARMM regional governor, Misuari, then redirected a disproportionately large chunk of development funds (too quickly thrust into the hands of inexperienced ARMM administrators by FVR and the international donors–they’ve learned their lesson since) into non-existent or barely existent projects into his home base, the Sulu Archipelago. (Like that six-lane highway supposedly being built in Sulu, LOL). He sure had a lot of bodyguards whenever he visited Manila, which was often, and racked up large Makati hotel bills.
The move into the Liguasan/Central Mindanao area was designed to address the imbalance, LCpl_X (@LCpl_X). And while they may turn up their noses at the supposedly less intellectual Maguindanao, still there is no love lost between Tausug and Maranao.
Another reason why so much attention has been focused on Maguindanao Province and southwestern Mindanao is land. Lots of land. Large tracks suitable for palm oil plantations. Large areas with nice mining potential, contiguous with the agricultural and mining areas of South and North Cotabato. Access to good ports and airports. (Maguindanao Province’s area is 4.900 sq km, against the total 4,000 of the provinces of Basilan, Jolo, and Tawi-tawi put together, made up of tiddly, scattered islands.
These are all considerations at play in any moves by the Duterte administration with regard to Sabah. And with regard to the BBL, federalism, the Abu Sayyaf, etc. Mindanao is multi-dimensional chess, and our new president’s been playing on that board for a long time.
Again thank you for your inputs Vicara.👍🏻
agreed, Vicara… the pendulum’s been swinging both ways, and I get the impression that a lot of this stems from the fact that the rest of the Philippines really doesn’t know Mindanao.
Though I’m bias towards Badjaos and Samas (same people really, IMHO) since I think they embody lumad characteristics more than the big 3 Muslim groups there, there’s a sense of pitting each group against the other.
I hope DU30 deals with them wisely , and stops the pitting one against the other strategy.
But my short-term concern is just the Salafi stuff , which the Maguindanaos are more prone to embracing, same with Badjao/Samas but these guys I noticed weren’t really too concern with Islamic stuff , I thought they were more in line with Sufis almost (nature as God, everything’s connected, etc. ) … it’s sad that they are known as dirty gypsies over there , if Filipinos can only see these guys in their element, open seas , they are a sight to behold, like watching poetry lived out.
LCPL_X, could it be that Filipinos became landlubbers during Spanish times and just are jealous of those who still live in the natural element of the sea? Would the Abu Sayyaf speedboats be something to fear if all Filipinos still were as seaworthy as before?
Restore the sea culture in the Philippines, then you will have a country that can defend itself against China easily in its own element regained – and will be very confident.
That’s a good point, Ireneo.
Similar to my call to get Filipinos to appreciate Aetas, and getting Bam Aquino to spear head this campaign.
Can you imagine Bam with nothing but short and goggles , spearfishing in the open seas and then cooking said bounty with all sorts of hot ladies at his side?
If Badjaos and Aetas don’t have the gravitas necessary, the cool factor, invite Bear Grylls to teach Bam Aquino a think or two,
Leni helped the Sumilao farmers in Mindanao – Exhibit A of her tsinelas (slippers) approach, something which bolsters her credibility.
But I think that the Spanish tradition of NOT being really a seabound people, more of land-based empire builders than the Portuguese, stuck too much with Filipinos.
One must remember that the Spanish banned the building of larger native boats for Christian natives and had a lot of trouble keeping Moro pirates at bay.
A lot of the misery of present-day Filipinos is that they overlook the sea next to them.
Exceptions prove the rule – Bert on his island being one. Bikol fishermen, I have read, venture even more. Even into the vaster reaches of the Pacific, intrepid in small boats.
“A lot of the misery of present-day Filipinos is that they overlook the sea next to them.”
I noticed this too, many Filipinos couldn’t swim, they’d just wade around on the beach or stay in cottages to drink or sing.
The lack of consistent and fast ferries is another mind scratching phenomena I noticed there.
Yes, as LCpl_X (@LCpl_X) says, the Badjao/Sama are the most free Filipinos. They are also the poorest. (These two conditions are interlinked.) In most fishing communities, everyone is poor, whereas in agricultural communities, there’s always a hierarchy, with some richer than others. And why? Because of land ownership–one can always accumulate more land in one’s name, pass it on to one’s descendants. OK, it’s the 21st century, with a an arbitration court about to announce an important decision that will impact upon what is, basically, a bunch of rocks. But at the community level, the sea has been up to now the most democratic source of livelihood. You can’t own it or contain it, or cut it up. You can throw your nets, and plant your seaweed (one of the cheapest crops to produce, although Monsanto is probably working on a way to rig that), you do a little barter on the side. You move around a lot, and that all right, because it’s your nature
Having had stretches of open sea serving as national and local boundaries has made us what we are. The historian Vince Rafael has written about our islander character. The sea explains the openness and fluidity of how we interact and think, with nothing fixed in place for long–and that goes for grudges as well as principles, including religious principles of one kind or another. And also explains our penchant for making person-to-person deals. But with land ownership and capital thrown into the equation (LOL, am sounding like a Leftist member of the new Cabinet), you get muddy waters. Unlike the Badjao. 🙂
*******
Hmm, about Vince Rafael. It seems to me that he is making more a comparison of Filipino character to the character of the sea, rather than to a causal relationship. If he is, it’s a bit of a stretch.
I can think of no other maritime or oceanic culture having fluidity of interaction and mutable emotions and principles.
*****
http://depts.washington.edu/history/people/37 is that the same guy?
Vicara, thanks, i’ve never thought of it that way, the difference between land and sea, the opportunities therein… IMHO opinion they only become poor once in the cities , but in their element, they didn’t look poor to me— but then again I’m a big fan of austerity.
Also, can you offer your take on our discussion w/ LG re English and Tagalog in Mindanao? thanks.
That’s a rich bibliography under Dr. Rafael’s name. thanks.
“I can think of no other maritime or oceanic culture having fluidity of interaction and mutable emotions and principles.” The Greeks…
Philippine politics dwarfs all classic Greek tragedy and comedy put together.
*******
Ahaha! I thought of the Greeks. But we owe much to Greece — democracy for one not to mention the foundations of philosophy, science and tragic literature. The Greeks were not fickle. Ancient Greece that is. Modern Greece? I don’t know.
*****
You’re welcome, guys.
ok Per Vicara’s inputs,most of them are transients and traders who lost their trade somehow because of the Sabah claim pronouncements.
No need to build a wall then.
Their movement just temporarily by the Sabah authorities, from the sketchy report I got. This happens every so often.
It will be back to normal,we still have a lot on our plate,Sabah will not yet be a major foreign policy issue.China will surely not honor any unfavorable decision from the Hague.
Joe,
(1) The proposal to acquire special powers to deal with traffic in Manila, cutting through dysfunctional laws with new laws and authorities.
The danger with this one is it will grant the president blanket authority to enter into contracts. Will Lolo D cancel the contract with the Japanese and return Northrail to the Chinese? ( Is this why GMA said she will introduce the emergency powers bill?) Will MRT be returned to Sobrepeña and even more favorable terms given? What about infra projects in NCR, will unsolicited bids rule the day?
(2) Extending the term of driver’s licenses ….yes.
Extending the term of passports…. yes.
Extending the term of NBI clearances….yes but this needs study. The purpose of such a clearance is defeated if let’s say one is charged in court during the life of the extended clearance period.
Extending the term of birth certificate…definitely. Why should a certificate of birth expire?
(3) A proposed Executive branch FOI to promote transparent government (although it raises a point of confusion when weighed against antagonism toward mainstream media).
More importantly, it must demonstrate credibility by having the president lead by example. First act should be for Lolo D to waive his rights under the bank secrecy law. Otherwise this FOI office will just be a deodorant.
Cause for concern is the return of the death penalty and the rushing of a shift to federal-parliamentary system. The latter will distract the country from more pressing problems. Furthermore, with all the government’s energy focused on the con-con the only thing it will have time for are sensational extra judicial killings
Thanks for the note on the traffic power. If it gives authorities outside Manila, or other powers other than curing the Manila gridlock, then I agree, it would be bad. How the law is written is everything. I appreciate your warnings.
On the rush to Federalism and death, I wholeheartedly agree, and have a blog in the works to that effect. I also think it undermines the progress made to develop a NATION, something the PH has NEVER truly had, it seems to me, from Aguinaldo’s in-fighting through the occupations and a dictatorship that pretty much wrecked the place. Unity and nationhood requires economic strength to provide the opportunities that make people proud, and splitting the nation into warring regions, which (at least under the Pimentel plan) can with 2/3 plebiscite vote withdraw from the Union . . .
“The earth-shaking appointment of an environmentalist to head the Department of Environment and Natural Resources.”
I think an environmentalist should head that department. Unfortunately, Ms Lopez may have been appointed as a deodorant (One of Lolo D’s biggest campaign donor is an executive of a mining firm owned by the Alcantara’s Davao who gave even more money to his campaign) and probably to pre-empt negative news coverage from the Lopez media outlets.
What will count here is if she will be given a free hand to choose her undersecretaries and assistant secretaries who I hope will be environmental scientists. Advocacy is one thing, the science associated with the office is another.
Yes, good points. I do think her personal life suggests she is her own person, and would find being a puppet difficult. Note the drop in mining company stocks, and rise in Lopez company stocks . . . may be confirming a part of what you say about favors coming and going.
She won’t be a puppet but she could be an unwitting deodorizer if she is not careful. Notice how Dominguez and others immediately qualified her anti-mining stance and her powers as a cabinet member?
Yes, true.
The point is, she got appointed.
Whether or not she’ll play a symbolic role remains to be seen. But it’s consistent with other appointments DU30 made, especially ones from socialist/communists, ie. if you can make a difference based on your passions, leverage your appointed office. it’s genius!
I’m seeing Teddy Roosevelt, Joe.
Yes, on point Manuel Buencamino. Gina would be smart to seek full time assistance from environment scientists. She may just be into the movement, no nitty-griddy technocrat.
I think the power is limited to NCR. However within NCR there are a lot of infra projects,,,,cable cars?The highway around Laguna Lake that SMC pulled out of? New train lines for better interconnection around the urban centers etc etc. Northrail can fall within the ambit of NCR since it connects Clark to NAIA. All will only need the signature of the president. And this raises alarms because of the unrevealed BPI accounts.
The language of the law will need scrutiny. Checks on the manner of awarding contracts must be included.
Yes, for sure the language of the law needs scrutiny. My comment was qualified as superficial because I have not read the draft law, but I do like the initiative and action orientation.
And also why President Duterte Is very much keen of building railway system with China when we have an issue with them about sovereignty in the WPS, what about Japan & S. Korea they can also built our railway system & better quality.
Yes, there is this thing called a bidding process. To get the best deal. Not just handing over a project because of bribes to your buddies.
Do you understand what I’m talking about, read my comment again.
If I may,I think he understood,he just shrugged off the WPS issue and went straight to competitive bidding.
Off topic…hope nobody else gave the link already.. 🙂
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/793101/bongbong-marcos-to-attend-duterte-inauguration
@Andres,
If we chose debt forgiveness,do you think we would be forgiven again?No chance,not even during a cold day in hell.
How on earth can a government operate without debt?
Through taxes? Printing money?
even our money printing advocate here believes that debt and deficits is good.
By the way, I asked Secretary Purisima whether or not he believed the debt ratings would be affected by President Duterte’s policies and ways. He said it already has been in that the PH is past due for increases from Moody’s and Fitch, but those are now on hold. He also said that we would know in about a year whether the nation would retain its investment grade standing or not.
Thanks for the heads up. Goodluck to the middle class people with car and housing loans I am very happy for your rates . Du30
Good luck to us.
Take all the consultancy work you can get from the government karl. At least we know it’s not wasted money.
Thanks, today is my last day,got to update my fb profile as tambay hehe.
Now as to our internal security…
Based on the speech,he won’t waste money on bullets because he does not want to kill fellow Filipinos.Criminals are no longer Filipinos,so it seems.(pilosopo)
What about ceasefire violations,would he just let the soldiers be sitting ducks?
The ASG,will he just talk with them,has he figured out how to outrun their speed boats?
I have mixed reactions,on one hand peace at last,but we all know have peace with one group, another group appears.
If our police force will be turbo charged ,good.
But has Mamasapano been forgotten?Has it not thought us any lessons?
Interagency coordination problems,etc.
Appease all the rebels,and just tell the military that there is no war no need for modernization and tell them that all wars are manufactured anyway?
Again, I must wait and see.
Sorry for ranting.
Rant away. Call me evil-minded, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that there’s been an elaborate setup here, maybe years in the making, in which Mindanao groups and national lawmakers agreed to NOT allow a peace deal to come through until after Aquino’s term ended. Because everything seems to be falling into place so quickly and smoothly on Day 1, with Duterte describing himself as happy with his Moro brothers’ understanding, plus a new cooperative agreement this week between the MILF and the MNLF, plus possibility of talks with the ASG (!), and everybody one big happy family, including Bongbong Marcos and Peter Cayetano smugly happy at the Inaugural–incidentally two of the most vociferous critics of the BBL, on which the government and Moro representatives had worked on for so long and so tirelessly. OK, am fitting pieces into the puzzle here.
Karl is there any reason why his speech has significance ? He may be just soothing ruffled feathers..And so be utterly irrelevant to what he actually intends..
He is now president and no longer campaigning, I expect numerous flip flops from earlier promises,but he must be advised that he can not afford to keep on saying one thing and doing another.We do not have a no confidence vote,but he must be wary of the satisfaction ratings,and others metrics.
” am fitting pieces into the puzzle here.” Duterte thanking Ramos for helping him become President and Ramos greeting him with the iron fist salute… think Mamasapano and who started getting airtime after that… Marcoses+Ramos at NAIA, Cayetano… and Duterte.
I had a similar suspicion but I generally don’t listen to my inner conspiracy theory junkie.
And we are just another piece of the puzzle,just another part of the plan….Ever since the world began.
Sorry LSS or something like that.
Yes, with a budget deficit targetted to be higher up to 5% of GDP due to ramped-up infra spending, with tax reform likely to decrease revenues, interest rates on loans will likely rise.
I think ratings can dip a little but investments will still flow since the rest of the world is so unstable.
Almost certainly the peso will weaken, as well.
Your question “if we chose debt forgiveness, do you think we would be forgiven again?” Is a bit tricky, if we have chosen debt forgiveness, we will have no more debt, thus, the second part of your question is illogical.
Yes, you answered “taxes”. Having no debts, 100% of that will just go back to the taxpayers, assuming a tie in exports-imports. Since we had debt, half of the taxes the taxpayers paid was one with the wind.
Credit is good if you can pay it without disrupting your daily life and if your creditor is a saint. IMF will give money but it will take away your freedom, that’s why in the article you posted Cory was crying foul of her creditors. Government deficit is good if the cause of it is public spending since it go to the citizen, but if it goes to paying interest in foreign loans then you are screwed.
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/rich-countries/the-only-5-countries-in-the-world-living-debt-free/
Then there would be six debt free nations.
Macao,British Virgin Islands,Liechstenstein(sp),Brunei and Palau.Plus the Philippines.
Macao has more tourists and gamers than residents.(hyperbole)
Brunei has a fountain of oil.
palao and British Virgin Islands are what can I say,islands.
And I do not even know how to spell Liechstenstein
Let us try being full nationalist and manufacture everything our selves, And to hell with foreign investments,.To hell with Washington concensus.
Let us outnumber,the casinos in Macao? Do tou think,they will choose the Philippiines over Macao.They will right ? Especially if they are not allowed to do business here.
Lots of studies for sources of oil,maybe we could just extract all of them.
And we have thousandsof island,why not make them all tourist spots?
That Nuclear powerplant, I wish we never paid them too.We never got a single volt it never produced a single watt.
If not for that one giant white elephant, we could have been debt free.Yeah,right.
Provocative read.
Full of inconsistencies, he called for national unity and healing, yet he did not invite Leni to his inauguration and gives her hard time to meet with him. I won’t be surprised if he reschedules the finally scheduled visit soon.
Yesterday, 06/29/2016. PDI published an interesting article by renowned political scientist, Clarita Carlos, PhD about Duterte’s operative mode….that he views the world as chaotic, and based on this world view, he is a high risk taker. Maybe you all have read the noted article.
Incidentally, in another past news report, Dr. Carlos had been noted to “like what Duterte is saying”, whatever he was saying then which is no different to what he continues to say to date.
Newly and fully emboldened, the militants are all rah rah rah for him, to stage a fist up, support rally today by the Palace gates, for a remarkable change, ‘dictating’ to him what should be his 15 point economic agenda. A drama video in the making for 6 years.
They, the militants, are the NEW boss. Will Duterte like the SERVANT role imposed on him by this minority group, if he has admitted to being a dictator. Will he regret putting militants in his cabinet? Nice, peace inducing moves, by the way. Can he satisfyingly manage the noise and rumble towards Peace?
Will the Duterte phenomenon unravel to an unpredicted end?
I wonder, if the non-militants of us, the silent majority, have given thought to putting up a similar rally by the noted gates in the future, when things are going too much to bear? Just asking.
Now they say when He was available,she went to Japan.
Vice President Leni Robredo inaugural?
For me, one word………beautiful
👍🏻
why do you capitalize “he” as if he was God? 🙂 aha ha ha
Karl knows how to butter up his own bread. heh heh
hehe
oops.😂😅
karl is a chauvinist guy, capitalyzed a he but not a she, hehehehe.
now i am really in trouble, i should have just used their last names.hehe
Coy? Deadma?
VP Robredo used the words playing hard to get,because President Duterte made deadma.
So both coy and deadma may apply.
I noticed how quickly the militants went from disenfranchised to condescending. The first words out of Sison’s mouth were instructive to the President. One is inclined to watch this little drama with some amusement and trepidation.
I just read the multi-paged agenda the militants brought out a couple of days ago at their peace support rally. Literally, it’s everything pure Maoist on a silver plate.
Lotsa luck with that.
Date correction. Dr. Carlos’ Dutuerte’s Operative Mode appeared in the PDI June 20, 2016 edition.
The night is long, the guide will be confusing, and the battle will be hard.
Don’t forget your bus ticket and tsinelas…..
Ah, a bit of poet here . . . indeed it is, it will be, it will, and I won’t . . .
Comic relief
http://giphy.com/gifs/uLIUU497tjjS8
Which was funnier to you,the Pnp chief or the one sleeping?
I think it would be the policeman…..hue
The one sleeping is a military officer,I think. So that’s the way to avoid feeling sleepy,by moving your head. 😜😉
PARSING DUTERTE’S SPEECH 30 June 2016, 12 noon
1. “I have seen how corruption bled the government of funds, which were allocated for the use in uplifting the poor from the mire that they are in.”
Having lived through Marcos’ martial law you saw this happen indeed and how hard the effort was to restore this country back to health.
Therefore, it is hypocritical to support Bongbong Marcos by giving him a cabinet post and allowing the burial of Ferdinand in the Libingan ng mga Bayani!
Be consistent!
2. “You cannot further the brotherhood by inciting class hatred among men.”
But you and your followers do engage in this by repeatedly making divisive references like ” imperial Manila” “kayong taga-Maynila”, “kayong mayayaman”, “di niyo naiintindihan kaming taga-Mindanao (or mga Bisaya).
Lead by example.
1. me and Joe are talking about that.
2. DU30 won Manila— despite of his “imperial Manila” rhetoric,
so he’s getting support in Manila… Why? 😉
LCpl_X, manila is a masochist, the more you hurt them the more they like you. Duterte understands it, and exploiting it. Ha ha ha.
Can it also be that there are plenty of Visayans and Mindanaoans in Manila? or Manilans just like the idea that to fix the problems in Manila, spread it around the country, make other Manilas, ie. Davao, etc. —- like dog shit ubiquitous over there that everybody steps on, spread it all over the neighborhood, instead of just one central spot, dries up faster too 😉
Both are very much possible. I heared Manila hates MRT and traffics, they will gladly accept the cable car proposal. That with be awesome riding a cable car from the top of the Ortigas condos to SM Megamall.
1. It really is inconsistent. Then again, there ARE a lot of people who think along the same lines as him. We should meditate on what went wrong in the last thirty years…..
2. It is worth noting that many of the things he says this way are spoken only in Cebuano or Dabaoeno in rallies in the other regions. In other words: They’re not for people from Manila or Luzon to know. This is what made me ask my mother to teach me Cebuano….. Two negatives don’t make a positive. That’s only valid in Math. 🙂
as per gian’s observation above, things said in Cebu and Davao, would then be seen in toto in Manila, so what gives? The beauty of the internet needs some honest reckoning, not this piece-meal approach. 😉
What supposedly is the wisdom to have the speech written in English?
A lot of his voters were likely not able to understand him! He deliberately ignored them. His smart voters should be able to pick that up.
Akala ko ba, he is a patriot, why not deliver the speech in Pilipino and have Cebuano, Pampango. and English translations for the foreign press, including sign language translation? Then the drama and distinction of his inaugural would be truly remarkable.
Maybe he wanted to speak only to the ABCs?
Duterte is not the President of all Filipinos, may be? Just a few? Who speak his dialects and some English.
I have to see this speech in youtube… but when there, I noticed English was weaponized and used as an equalizer to Pilipino (which is essentially Tagalog), ie. had he spoken Cebuano it would’ve marginalized other ethno-linguistic groups, but speaking English would be understood by all (even 75% proficiency in English), at the same time respecting all… with the added bonus of trumping Tagalog.
There’s a hierarchy of language over there, and English is on top. 😉
LCPL_X,
A majority of Pres. Duterte’s voters, the DEs, unlikely understood his speech.
In fact, even the Cs are likely to have trouble understanding accurately the full message of the speech, especially the way the speech is written. Some Bs, too. Me, no surprise there.
But for sure, the majority in attendance did.
Among Filipinos living in the Philippines, conversing straight in English is a struggle, for many, even college grads. Comprehension of the written and spoken sentence, especially if laced with metaphors and uncommonly used English words, is the issue, I think.
It’s now a myth that English equalizes the multi-dialect Filipinos. It’s Tagalog that does.
I hope you don’t mistake my comment to be derogatory.
Am merely sharing my daily observations and encounters here among professionals and nonprofessionals, sellers and buyers, bosses and staff, teachers and students, friends and neighbors, etc.
Tagalog has been the medium of instruction in the Philipines, from pre-elem to college, except in exclusive, elitist schools, maybe.
“It’s now a myth that English equalizes the multi-dialect Filipinos. It’s Tagalog that does.”
That’s not what I saw.
Sure non-Tagalogs will speak Tagalog in civil situations, but when push comes to shove they will slap Tagalogs especially those that non-Tagalogs know will not be able to level up to their English, with some American English that would make Trump cry. 😉
LG, are you Tagalog? Have you visited the Visayas and Mindanao?
From the exchanges,I think LG is from Pampanga.I may be wrong though.
Lance,
Karl, below, is correct. TY Karl.
Pampanga has been a melting pot, apparently, for years. Especially Angeles City and the City of San Fernando. My hometown, a first class municipality, has been fast becoming like one.
The Filipino ethnic group, following, exist in my hometown. Mostly as laborers, domestic help, and tiangge goods sellers (Muslims). Some tryke and jeepneyndrivers. The Badjaos roam the market with styro cups and a baby or a kid tagged along. Some Ilocanos and Visayans have married local women, and havevbecome entrepreneurs.
Badjaos, Muslims, Cebuanos, Illongos, Warays, Ilocanos, Aetas, Americans (Whites n Blacks), and who else(?), live, work, and/or play here. All, except the Americans (my tax preparer is and a few are acquaintances) demand that I speak to them in Tagalog if transacting business with them. Of course, I admonish (arrogantly😉) that they better start learning Kapampangan if they plan to stay in my province. You see, some Pampanguenos speak n understand our dialect only. (Learn Nippongo if you want to work in Japan, that’s what is required of nurses who went there to work).
In my hometown n I suspect in Pampanga, Tagalog is the common language spoken in schools, public or private…. In classrooms, corridors, canteens. Even in the public market , grocery and all other kinds of stores.
Kapampangan kids learn to speak Tagalog first before English because of their yayas. Though yayas learn simple English fast when charged of English-speaking kids.
Thanks, LG. I’ve only been to Angeles once… most of what I saw was in Mindanao— so maybe Vicara can ‘splain how I’m wrong or right… but I saw English used as equalizer, trumping Tagalog, hence my take above re DU30 ‘s choice of English vis-a-vis his campaign, which IMHO is consistent.
Lance, I don’t use “equalizer” the way you seem to. You seem to use the word as if the English speaker is superior over the one not speaking the language, or maybe he trumps Tagalog because he assumes his audience does not know Tagalog? Or s/he English speaker trumps Tagalog, because s/he is non-Tagalog? Easier to learn to speak English than Tagalog?
To equalize means just that, puts the speaker and the listener on same, equal, note/ level. Thus, Tagalog, in general, equalizes the speaker and listeners/s better than does English.
People in Mindanao may not be as conversant in Tagalog as are native Central Luzonites. As are not, as well, those from the north. Though the latter may be more conversant as geographically closer to CL.
Way back when, I recall that my Ilocano class- and dormitory mates at UP would rather speak to us, non-Ilocanos, in English. I cite this to give the Prez an excuse. He prefers to say STOP better than HINTO when addressing drug-users, pushers, n lords. Corrupt cops, too.
For a reason, Duterte may not be able to deliver well, his inaugural in the national language, to his passion and beat. But his message did not reach as many as he could have. But that might be the intent. His speech writer could have used a professional translator if he told him so. And have dialect-translated versions of it published in the Tagalog and regional papers.
Maybe the Tagalog newspapers, e.g. Tiktik, Bulgar, have it in the translated version, already? They should.
What I have heard about Camarines Norte is that Bikol is disappearing among the young – similar to what LG wrote about kids learning Tagalog first before Kampampangan.
What I also suspect is that this CamNorte/Pampanga phenomenon is mostly in Luzon.
The world may look radically different in Mindanao, so could be both views are valid. Depends on whether they see Tagalog as the “Imperial Manila” language down South.
Yes indeed, stop confusing us with contradictions. I wish there were a “shout it out” button. I’ve never seen so many cynics created in a single speech, maybe 15 to 50 million of them.
WOW Joe! As a first time visitor I gotta say 3 things.
1. I thought trying to keep up with American politics was bad, but after reading a couple of posts here I can see that we have NOTHING on the Philippines! How do ya’ll manage it??? My head is spinning!
2. I have never seen any blog with such an active comment section! Impressive indeed.
3. I am way out of my depth here! Maybe if I hang around for a few years, or decades, I might be able to contribute something worthwhile.
Oh and one more thing…may I suggest that readers post a capitalized letter indicating their political affiliation beside their comments. I can’t make heads or tails out of most of this! I’m so confused! (maybe I better stick to American politics where I know if I’ve just said something stupid)
Anyway, thanks for having me, I look forward (I think?) to participating (eventually). I’m gonna go lay down now, I have a headache!
Doc’
Hi there, welcome!
American politics is easier, at least people are more aware of what they’re doing, yep. You’ll get used to us eventually.
When you’ve been here for some time, though, I think affiliation is easy to determine, based on what people say. I myself aren’t particularly affiliated, I just try to do what I feel is best for the country.
See you around!
Hello uht,
Thanks for the warm welcome! I look forward to many happy returns.
I’m pro-Bernie, anti-Hillary and voting for Trump (because I’m counting on his vindictive personality to attack Hillary and the Koch bros. etc. once elected). Like DU30 I’m somewhat of a socialist having been born to two hippy parents.
I have no dog in Philippine politics, but since Joe’s comment thread is deplete of pro-DU30s I’m playing the Devil’s Advocate, since I’m somewhat a student of Machiavellian politics, and not this techno bs finance sector meets manufacturing polling is a science stuff .
de Montaigne and Camus are my muse here. 😉
Lance, Duterte is no socialist.
How many ex-commies/ socialists does he have in his cabinet, Micha? 😉
I wouldn’t expect them to be that influential in enacting policies. It’s more likely they’d be marginalized anyway. The Finance and Economic Planning departments is in the hands of corporatists.
So basically, there’s no change… so why all the worry, Micha? 😉
I don’t understand the framing of your question Lance. No change, no worries?
chempo’s article was basically that the commies were coming! (read that like the sky is falling!), then Joe’s DU30 series postulated that DU30 has no principles, that he will piss on PNoy’s improvements, etc. edgars high falutin’ due process and rule of law, etc.
So if it’s more of the same, shouldn’t you and me be the ones to calm the troops here? ie., guys, it’ll be more of the same after, so don’t get your panties in bunch 😉
*******
High falutin? Every flaw I have enumerated is based on Duterte’s words and actions.
Prove which flaw has no basis.
As JoeAm says, you have a talent for mischaracterization.
If the lion has turned into a pussycat — and I will grant the possibility — then the people who voted for Duterte have been conned.
*****
* after all
Yep, calm those alarmist, we shall.
My reading is that Joe America and Duterte will get along fine.
🙂 Thanks. Appreciate the confidence.
There you go , Micha… all this drama is unwarranted— at least until something worth protesting actually occurs.
edgar,
If pro-DU30s have been conned, that means anti-DU30s stand to gain. 😉 Means you guys won, buddy!
*******
That would be the irony, wouldn’t it?
But I would not say we have won.
If indeed it were true that Duterte is a pussycat, the unacceptable aspect of the psyops campaign strategy would be the use of deception to manipulate the people. That deceitful strategy — because it appealed to the lower regions of the mind — will inevitably have some dire consequences.
*****
“High falutin? Every flaw I have enumerated is based on Duterte’s words and actions.
Prove which flaw has no basis.”
edgar,
No need to rehash an old thread, https://joeam.com/2016/06/07/understanding-president-duterte-1-trial-by-npa/#comment-179514
*******
Thank you. I take it you accept that you cannot prove which flaw has no basis.
*****
edgar,
Read Micha’s and Bert’s exchange below on DU30 and socialism.
High Falutin’ is because we’ve been this road before, you’re in the clouds and insist on leveling charges from above (so easy) , while I’m attempting to study the man and his actions (don’t care so much for speeches, good or bad).
My whole point is that there is no “prove” since you’ve insisted on taking the high falutin’ path.
Proof would be in what I’m asking Joe re DU30’s “powerful” social media “machine” , something like that can be easily proven (ex. how was it physically different from other political and advertising social media campaigns?etc… that you can prove 😉 )
Let me flip it around,
you prove your claims re due process and rule of law , and then let’s examine how it’s “proven”—- you’re playing the definition game here 😉 when you know fully proof has a very specific definition.
I’ll even make it easier, so you can test your answers yourself before setting out to “prove” your own statements 😉
a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
Again, like I said playing high falutin’ is fine and dandy , but don’t get the illusion that you’ve proven anything. The high falutin’ game may impress others, but not me… 😉
*******
So many words.
You claimed and mischaracterized my list of flaws as “high falutin.”
He who makes a claim must prove it when challenged. Elementary logic.
Why pass the onus of proof to me?
*****
Hey Lance you callin Edgar high fallutin, is condescenscion even if it has the word high.
Get over your past differences,this is just a request, so I am saying please.
karl, he knows he’s being high falutin’ … it’s a philosophical game he’s playing here , and I’m simply calling him out on how he uses the word “prove” , he’ll not be offended karl (no need to worry 😉 )
this same line of discussion has been going on since Socrates in Athens, edgar knows what I’m trying to drive at, pay attention to his next comment. 😉 But I assure you sir edgar will not be offended, he’ll welcome the challenge.
I would note that Karl has the official force of moral custodian of the blog (Chief Tanod), and his suggestion has merit. I also thought your high hfalutin’ commentary was personal, condescending, and not to the issue.
You are big boys,you know what you are doing.
If I call him a thief, then I’d definitely have hell to pay, karl 😉 high falutin’ is a philosophical game.
Read again, edgar, high falutin’ is a description, not a claim.
Proof is something else. If you agree you can “prove” your views, then we’re even— why I shared the link above. Elementary my dear, Watson.
******
A description is a claim.
A description is a qualifier, which in this case is used subjectively. It denotes how you see things. And when you make a statement of how you see things — be it in a sentence or even just a word — you are making an assertion.
An assertion is a claim.
*****
* can’t
Like what Ireneo said, there’s a big difference between pilosopo and philosophy 😉 .
OK, something easier…
What is proof, edgar? What’s your definition? And how do you think you’ve “proven” something re DU30 and rule of law?
Again, high falutin’ describes what you’ve been doing 😉 . Come down from the clouds— maybe join our talk re Sec. Yasay and the first cabinet meeting, and talk about options DU30 has? and how that relates to rule of law and to the use of violence ? 😉
*******
Deflection.
*****
How’s that deflection, I’ve already stated I can’t prove it, and that you can’t either,
if you can prove it. That’s my challenge, edgar. 😉
If not, then my high falutin’ stands (proudly, I might add 😉 ).
*******
Read again: “High falutin? Every flaw I have enumerated is based on Duterte’s words and actions.”
Also: “Why pass the onus of proof to me?”
If you cannot prove your contention, then the course of action for you to take should be self-evident. You have arrived at a Y.l
*****
de·scrip·tion
dəˈskripSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
a spoken or written representation or account of a person, object, or event.
“people who had seen him were able to give a description”
No claim there 😉 .
(OT: how are you adjusting where your comments go? mine goes straight to the bottom of the thread automatically, makes this discussion more confusing)
It’s a description, edgar not a claim. High falutin’ because you have the luxury of staying in the clouds while not judging DU30 in context, I’m simply saying place him in context.
Ideals and theories are great, but these things need to be brought down from the clouds and acted upon. People’s hands actually get dirty when this happens, context means evaluating those dirty hands—- you’ve not done that yet.
You’ve chosen to stay in the clouds.
Now your turn to “prove”… 😉 (remember we’ve already covered this in the 1st Understanding DU30 series ).
*******
More deflection.
*****
To make this easy,
here’s essentially what’s happening, edgar…
Me: That girl’s ugly as hell.
You: Prove it!
* that’s the biggest abuse of the word “proof” if I’d ever seen one.
(high falutin’ also means pilosopo, the difference to philosophy Ireneo’s already described… 😉 )
*******
It’s easy to prove “ugliness” by using criteria.
Proportionality for one. Symmetry for another.
If this is not so, there would be no beauty contests… because if one cannot prove ugliness neither can one prove beauty.
*****
exactly my point, edgar.
Beauty (and ugliness) is in the eye of the beholder. Sure we can have contests, but all criteria will be arbitrary—- similar to your interpretations (not proofs) 😉 . I might add that I’ve said high falutin’ before in the previous thread, no protest then, but now there’s protest, what gives? 😉
High falutin’ stands, fellas… as my description of edgar’s stance. So we’ll end it as Micha and Bert have below re socialism.
*******
If there is a consensus on standards, standards are not arbitrary. They are not entirely subjective, they are conjective (or intersubjective).
By and large, things that are agreed upon — like law — are not arbitrary.
*****
that’s a bit of a stretch, edgar… remember the basis or essence of the Rule of Law is violence. there’s no chicken or the egg debate, rule of law is borne out of violence. to understand DU30 you have to first understand that, Rule of Law was not plucked from the clouds. 😉
*******
More descriptions: first “high falutin”, now “stretch.”
And more deflection. Granting violence is the basis of law, what does that have to do with it not being arbitrary?
You not be understandin’.
*****
The theory of the state having monopoly of violence to impose rule of law.
And objective standards to ensure some degree of fairness. But since the judiciary of the Philippines barely works for the common man, many are looking for an older solution – the tribal chieftain who decides. Much like the datus and later barangay captains solved conflicts within their barangay. Or councils of chiefs and respected people took care of cases in Germanic villages – the origin of the Anglo-Saxon jury system.
All civilization is simply an attempt to contain chaos i.e. entropy that leads us back to our natural Stone Age state, it is not a given. Morals, laws etc. are to contain the beast, or at least those of us who are not that kind. Fix the system, or people will look for quick fixes.
“Granting violence is the basis of law, what does that have to do with it not being arbitrary?”
How do you think consensus is built, edgar?!!!
*******
Another deflection tactic: stray from the point by asking a question unrelated to the original issue.
Need I remind you of the original issue?
Well, perhaps it is not necessary. Reviewing what has been written, you have already admitted you cannot prove your assertion:
“How’s that deflection, I’ve already stated I can’t prove it, and that you can’t either,”
Therefore I will let the matter lie… as what should be self-evident to you is apparently not… and as it has grown tedious.
Thank you.
*****
Don’t forget the “you can’t either” also, edgar… very important 😉
*******
Read again:
“He who makes a claim must prove it when challenged. Elementary logic.
Why pass the onus of proof to me?
*****
High falutin’ is a description, ie. your stance on DU30 vis-a-vis the Rule of Law is high falutin’ because it does not take into account that Rule of Law is borne out of violence. 😉
*******
I granted — but did not accept — that violence is the basis of law. I also said your point has nothing to do with the law not being arbitrary.
You conceded you cannot prove your claim of “high falutin.” Therefore, it does not apply.
*****
As descriptor ‘high falutin’ does apply…
for example, right now you are being high falutin’ , the point of the initial post was about rule of law and violence, which bled from the other thread on the same subject, hence my quick mention of ‘high falutin’ (which I used in the original thread).
So I can say high falutin’ like I can say you are being pilosopo now (as per Ireneo’s difference between philosophy and pilosopo… he had a list of other traits as well).
You are being pilosopo, edgar. 😉
*******
Ad hominem.
*****
high falutin’ = pilosopo here… so you can’t charge ad hominem. 😉 It goes back to the point of descriptor.
*******
I can. I do. I have.
*****
http://tagalog.pinoydictionary.com/word/pilosopo/
*******
Don’t forget the onus is not on me.
*****
The descriptor was for your views on DU30 and Rule of Law, high falutin’ because you’ve not considered action (or have deleted it entirely),
The onus is for you to come down from the clouds. 😉
*******
There is a notion of responsibility in whatever we do… and that includes commenting on social media.
To me, my responsibility is not to “come down from the clouds.” To me, my responsibility is to articulate ideas and ideals — yes, ideals — that perchance may illuminate. The purpose is not to impress — that, indeed, would be pretentious and, yes, highfalutin — but to increase my awareness and those that are so engaged.
The ultimate purpose is to uplift my condition and the human condition in whatever small way I can. The “human condition” is a grandiose term. I have no delusions of grandeur; mine is a modest ambition. If I can interact with the regular denizens of the blog and its wider readership and mutually learn and affect lives in a meaningful way, then I am satisfied.
I do not know what your purpose is… or your responsibility, if any. From what I can see, you do bring something to the table. But you also bring this attitude of not listening and of denigration… and just wanting to score points. It gets tedious.
*****
Down pat Edgar. It’s tedious alright, even for just a reader like me. Skip, skip, I had to do.
Sounds like the US corporal, if indeed he is one, may finally have found the space n forum to speak his shut up voice in the military.
Belligerence is unfunny.
For these ‘Understanding DU30’ series, my responsibility is to ensure DU30 and his views get a fair shake… did you notice how everyone jumped in on the bandwagon re Sec. Yasay and China? Sometimes I’ll use the Socratic method, sometimes I’ll go for the jugular.
Your being in the clouds is useful, edgar… just be careful not to get too comfortable there, as I’ve said peoples hands get dirtied getting actual work done, I’m still on the fence re DU30 and his methods, but I’m trying hard to understand, if we get a better reading of the guy we can forecast him better,
The closest here attempting to understand DU30 and his methods are josephivo and Ireneo (I’m not counting the trolls). The blog won’t be served best if we are all agreeing. And my pet-peeve is this phrase “We can agree, to disagree”, so you’ll never hear that from me 😉
Don’t mind the polemics, it’s just my style.
*******
That’s a very narrow interpretation of responsibility.
You will have noticed that we do continually reassess Duterte without your help — thank you very much — because, while we are opinionated, we are fair-minded.
*****
*******
It is not necessary to go for the jugular. We are not point-scoring the number of kills. Just have your say politely and have the courtesy of leaving your discussant(s) to deal with your points. This was Karl’s complaint.
*****
Style my foot. stylin mo mukha mo.
“Lance, Duterte is no socialist.”—Micha
Hmmmmn, let me count the whys:
1. He constantly raised his clench fist in front of the public.
2. He’s associated with the NPAs in Davao.
3. His professor was Joma Sison.
4. He appointed many leftists in his government.
5. He wants to have bilateral talks with Communist China re contested Philippine territories.
6. He does not need fighter jets to defend Philippine territories against Chinese incursions.
7. etc.
Who was it who said, “If it walks like a duck, moves like a duck, quacks like a duck, and reared by a duck…it must be a duck.”
That is not saying that President Duterte is a duck, hear?
Ahahahaha! Punch line of the day. Sent me rolling . . . dry, really dry . . .
Bert,
If superficial manifestation is all you see, I hope you enjoy marinated superficiality.
Micha,
I enjoy marinated ulam, more specifically marinated roasted duck but without the skin, not the skin mind you because doing so tend to add superficiality to its taste, and so what you’re saying is not true.
What do you want me to see on President Duterte? There is nothing to see. Except what he’s done already, and what he said.
You said Duterte is no socialist. Pray tell us…what manifestation, superficial or not, have you seen about him that prompted you to have such a conclusion?
Here is one very basic definition of socialism :
“a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.”
Have you heard Duterte proposing any of these?
“Have you heard Duterte proposing any of these?”
:), Micha, what I heard was what he said, In the same manner, what I saw was what he did. Do you expect me to hear what he did not say?
Ergo, it would be erroneous to assert he’s a socialist based on the above definition.
Wrong, you’re totally wrong, Micha. My assertion was not based on any definition but purely on what I saw and heard.
While you, you’re having your conclusion based on what you haven’t heard yet, or seen, isn’t that right?
And therein lies the superficiality of what you’re seeing.
Hindi lahat ng nagsasabing “sosyalista ako” ay kaagad mo namang paniwalaan na ganun na nga sya. You will have to find out what he actually does. He hasn’t said he is going to nationalize or heavily regulate the means of production and distribution of goods and services.
Duterte himself qualifies his leftist sympathies to be just that – mere sympathies, and that he has no real intention of turning hard left. He is not going to enact directives and policies that will actually make him a full card carrying socialist in the mold of, say, Fidel Castro or Vladimir Lenin.
Okay, Micha. I’d guess that what you wanted to say is that we should have to wait and see and that both my assertion and your conclusion can be considered superficial until more proof surfaces when President Duterte starts implementing his governing policies.
Agreed.
@Bert
Are you suggesting Du30 is a drake.
He has a disclaimer on the fine print.
‘Socialism: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies” Social ownership of production means is crucial: cooperatives, public/state, collective… ownership and consequently resistance to privatization of education, health care, infrastructure, power generation, transport….
None of what you said described the duck nor any duck’s behavior.
Words are used figuratively too, or as an insult as in the US, but that’s an individual game, so you are always correct,
“Leaning to the left” or progressive would be a more correct statement, although a much broader category.
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/prince/section4.rhtml – from Macchiavelli:
Cruelty, which is itself evil, can be used well if it is applied once at the outset, and thereafter only employed in self-defense and for the greater good of one’s subjects. Regular and frequent perpetration of cruel actions earns a ruler infamy. If a prince comes to power by crime and wishes to be successful, he, like Agathocles, must only use cruelty in the first sense.
Therefore, when a prince decides to seize a state, he must determine how much injury to inflict. He needs to strike all at once and then refrain from further atrocities. In this way, his subjects will eventually forget the violence and cruelty. Gradually, resentment will fade, and the people will come to appreciate the resulting benefits of the prince’s rule. Most important, a prince should be consistent in the way he treats his subjects.
Irineo, do you know that this was LKY’s basic approach:
When there is bad stuff, give it to the folks at one go.
When there are good stuff — give it to them in a few installments.
Great Michaveallian and great marketeer.
Hello Lance,
Man you are an interesting (albeit conflicted) mix! I’d hate to meet you on the battlefield! I fear you would shoot me in the ass, then gently administer copious amounts of aid to my posterior, and then give me detailed instructions on how to qualify for more tax-payer funded benefits and pay than I was receiving as a soldier! All whilst lecturing me on the finer points of “battlefield pollution” and the environmental damages caused by my use of high capacity magazine fed assault weapons and fossil fuel powered mechanized transport! 😉
Semper Fi my Brother. I sincerely thank you for your service!
LOL! That’s actually pretty close to how it would play out! LOL! Only thing missing really is education: https://joeam.com/2016/05/05/qa-with-k/#comment-174990
The PTSD give away at the VA is real, get on that band-wagon and take your benefits to the Philippines (just ask any of the many Filipino nurses at your local VA 😉 ) LOL!
Cheers, Doc! 😉
I almost included: “Then of course file a lengthy detailed report to my superiors indicating my immediate need for sensitivity training and re-education”. LOL
Just to be clear; I’m not a Vet, but I consider all members of the Armed Forces to be my “Brothers”. Thanks again. 😉
LOL! 😉
Ahahahaha, overdose, eh. A common condition, along with addiction. Some here have to go on forced withdrawal from time to time because it gets to be a little much.
The blog has good discussions because that is the purpose, to teach, to learn, to laugh . . . and on some days to storm about or weep. The best approach is to take it one article at a time, and join right in. I can tell that you aren’t really out of your element. You are in, and in a short time, might be posting your own guest blog.
Most people would just type PH, because that affiliation supersedes any political leanings.
That’s a fantastic idea, Joe, I hope Doc gets to that point. Would be very interesting to see someone who starts with very little knowledge of Philippine politics and see how he processes them to understand it.
Doc: re political affiliation, it’s precisely one of the inadequacies here because the development of political philosophies or ideologies have been so sparse, and much of the politics have been on the clean vs corrupt, capable vs inept axes. It almost always boils down to personalities.
Definitely none of the US version where you have distinctions with regards to foreign policy, economics, role of govt, taxes, etc.
Hello Andrew,
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful comments.
“it’s precisely one of the inadequacies here because the development of political philosophies or ideologies have been so sparse”
I couldn’t agree more, Although my experience and knowledge of most things in PH is rather limited, I can say with some degree of confidence that the conditions you mention are in fact prevalent and are a major cause of constant strife and disorganization on a grand scale. The same is true of many other countries to varying degrees, including the US. I would venture to say that a majority of Americans are equally as unaware, uninformed and unconcerned. But I also assert that this type of blatant ignorance and complacency is not by accident or without cause. This is probably especially true in PH.
To explain; I am of the strong belief that mass ignorance and confusion related to political and governmental processes in particular, does not stem purely from a nations inherent ability to learn or become factually informed. While intellect, education and socioeconomic factors do in fact contribute, I firmly believe there is a much more pertinent and sinister cause of such pervasive failures to comprehend. Namely; deliberate and malicious efforts to deceive and/or misinform the majority of the public, wherever they may live. My belief is based on direct observation and study of these troubling conditions as they exist today, as well as historically speaking.
Without posting an entire dissertation on the subject, I will add that I believe there has been a long-standing organized campaign to create the very conditions we endure today, the origins of which are as insidious as they are destructive.
With that said; I hope I haven’t caused you (or others) to think that I am given to wild speculation or “conspiracy theories”, I just believe my theories are germane to the subject at hand and may be of some interest. I welcome your thoughts and input if you are so inclined.
Doc’
Your explanation could have been “you (Churches) keep them stupid, we (politicians) keep them poor” or something similar as in Rizal’s books.
Spin doctors and marketeers of the world unite!!!… and prevent real discussions.
I think “preventing real discussion” is the intended purpose because that is the first step to doing something about it. But I’m not sure we agree on the origins.
As to “unity”, that is a complex entanglement that will probably never be unraveled. Ultimately, the goal is the same for all; to increase power and control by means of subversion.
Ironically, I’m not sure exposing the truth would have much impact at this point.
Your thoughts?
Hello Joe,
Thanks for the warm welcome! I’ll try not to overindulge. 😉 But I think you may have too much faith in my blogging ability, I’ll be lucky to compose a decent comment or two much less a guest blog. Very good of you to consider it though. I’ve already begun to learn from your blog and the rich array of contributors who comment here. I thank you again and look forward to many future exchanges.
Oh BTW, I have to ask. Who is the image of in your icon and why did you choose it?
Thanks again for making me feel welcome.
Doc’
The image on the icon, like the pen name, is designed to convey the simple truth of who writes the blog, an older white guy. The picture is of my great grand-father, a civil war veteran (Union), a cantankerous and high principled man. The photo has also the benefit of forcing people to deal with the thought that all these young, vibrant ideas come from an old geezer. 🙂
I see, very interesting. Thank you for sharing this info. I’m getting a lil’ crusty around the edges myself. 😉
🙂
So you are strongly related to the one in the photo?
Yes, but he was OLD in that picture. I’m a veritable spring chicken and my wife would never allow me to get that hairy.
Like a well shaven George C., she likes, eh?
Hahahaha, yeah, that’s about it.
Well whaddaya know, the inaugural speech gave away Duterte’s true colors. He’s got a not-so-subtle message to the entrenched Philippine economic elite that he is not going to enact policies that will in any way discomfort them or meaningfully challenge the oppressive status quo.
He will probably throw some crumbs to the poor to satisfy his top down populist branding and that’s all about that the poor suckers who voted for him could expect.
This much is clear on day one of his presidency : he’s just going to be another neo-liberal corporate dog in socialist clothing.
I wonder if the leftists and militants in the crowd share your view. I didn’t see them walk out.
Who are those leftists in the crowd?
In all likelihood, they have yet to discover they’re being played by Duterds.
If we’re anti-commies, anti-leftists, here (as discussed previously), isn’t DU30’s playing of leftists, a good thing then? Why or why not? Explain… or since we’re talking ebonics per this article, ‘splain to me, Micha 😉
And if it’s more of the same, same old same old, ala FVR, ERAP, GMA, PNOY, then what’s all the fuss really?
Sorry Lance, haven’t read the entire discussion thread yet. Just checked in now.
My fuss, basically, is that it’s going to be same old, same old.
The fear here was that DU30 was gonna be different.
So if you’re point is that DU30 will be more of the same,
it kinda nullifies the first , no?
In what way will Duterte be any different?
Micha, have you not been reading the articles?!!! Joe ‘splain to Micha how DU30 will completely mess up the Philippines.
🙂
Surprise, surprise! Joe Am could just have been over reacting.
Here are Bayan people after the inauguration ceremony, in the Palace. I don’t know who all was there, but they are for sure salutin’ pretty.
Duterte’s pretense.
He’s going to pacify them but his real agenda is not going to align with theirs.
I honestly hope I’m wrong.
Interesting theory.
Micha,
What’s his real agenda? And is pacifying them so bad, better than DDSing them, no? Which part do you hope you’re wrong with?
Lance,
Duterte is fearful of turning left because he’s aware of the fate of those who’ve done so in Latin America. Do Allende, Chavez, Bolivar, Castro et.al., sound familiar?
I hope I’m wrong to suppose that Duterdte is just another coward when come face to face with the mighty Washington Consensus approved corporate hegemon.
His agenda is rather obvious to me. Chinese FDI, wipe out colonial era land holdings and plantations by ending protectionist laws. Take those workers and move them to sweatshop zones. Terrorize the poor (already happening) to inculcate an obedient worker. Bribe the scattered “leftists” who are basically gangsters (NPA).
Remember that China a) needs a new place for their sweatshop industry since labor is too expensive b) needs to dump their massive industrial overcapacity (see solar panels, trains etc)
Foreign policy. Orient towards China. Talk down and erode the US alliance until it is meaningless.
I like the “terrorize the poor” meme. It’s always the poor folks who get liquidated and shackled.
Enrile and Bongbong? Hmmm…I wonder how will Duterds deal with them.
No enemies, no friends means nobody to harm, nobody to serve the President explained his position. He too might think that the split in left and thus right is no more meaningful because who knows what left or right does mean today. Is it still all belongs to the state versus unrestricted free markets?
A more realistic split might be the “haves” and the “have-nots”. The have-nots with less than 120,000 peso a month for a family of 4, required to have a comfortable life. (So there is also a large sub-category of the have-nothing-at-all or have less than 10,000 a month) Looking in the inauguration room I saw that the president still invited almost exclusively people belonging to the “haves”. So what? Change in the air?
I’m sure karl can enumerate them to you, Micha, the leftists cabinet members, like for examples Gina Lopez of DENR and Mariano of DAR, right, karl?
Gina Lopez is a leftist? She of the ABS-CBN Lopez haciendero clan of Iloilo and Negros is a leftist?
environmentalism usually aligns with leftists ideals, though I agree the two need not be connected—- but based on my experience if you’re into protecting the environment, you’ll also be into helping the poor, saving plants and animals, anti-consumerism since that’s what’s directly affecting the environment, etc.
That doesn’t make Gina Lopez a leftist. If anything, that only makes her a conservative.
Helping the poor and actually proposing policies that will eradicate poverty are two different slogans.
Micha,
Conservatives here tend to be Republicans and Republicans tend to side with corporations over the environment any day of the week, hence their stance on climate change… are we talking about the same thing when you say conservative?
I agree with helping poor and eradicating poverty.
Lance,
Conserving the planet and its resources is what I meant by conservatism.
The Republican conservatives in the US have been contradicting themselves by going all in for fracking and denying AGW. I guess their conservatism has more to do with conserving the fabulous wealth of the rich and mighty.
Folks I think there is a lot of blabbing & mind flapping happening here on Joe Am.
Let’s see what Du30 does in the coming weeks. Patience is hard but good for the soul
I would be real happy if he gave the SSS bill the ok and organised for coconut farmers to get back what was stolen from them by Marcos..And gave privately employed Nurses a well deserved pay rise after waiting since 2004..he, he !!
He’d get a huge elephant stamp from me if he just did those three things.
Interesting take. I found today’s discussions both informative and entertaining. I kinda think it is not for you to instruct others on how, when or why they contribute. I’m happy they do.
Sometimes we disagree Joe…I was expressing my view of the various comments.this day when Du30 became president…But it’s not the end of the world
It’s my editorial job to manage the discussion. It the reader’s job to discuss the issues. There is nothing to agree or disagree on. Those are the rules.
“I found today’s discussions both informative and entertaining. “
Me too!!! Especially Vicara‘s , Joe.
Sorry for the late reply Bert,
is Leonor Briones leftist?
You asked me if Gina Lopez was leftist,I could not find the interview you were talking about her tallking about being a leftist,was it early 90s? hard to find archives dating back to that period.
Meanwhile,just outside Malacanang,they had a rally.
http://www.rappler.com/move-ph/138166-hopeful-leftist-rally-support-duterte
Both Ms. Lopez and Ms. Briones had the best dresses in the inauguration, karl.
And yeah, Briones was a commie, her claim to fame was propaganda , she was in charge of sending out young brilliant Filipino commies to teach , and knew that since many of them were single, sent them out as tandem couples … eventually she became the match – maker of commies over there.
I hope she takes homeschooling program seriously 😉 . https://joeam.com/2016/05/05/qa-with-k/#comment-183661
Home schooling is already practiced by the show biz folks,Once the internet speed is resolved,that is one solution to traffic,so is telecommuting or working at home.
They may not have heard the latent message. Besides, they may be too beside themselves to have really listened intently. And may be polished enough to stay and applaud.
Or Micha read too much into it. I didn’t see the speech myself. Did you, and do you share Micha’s takeaway?
Read the speech in your favorite tabloid Joe.
Why? I don’t trust a word my new good friend says.
Blimey, lazy bloke.
How are you going to know your soon-to-be friend if you won’t trust his word salad?
See, he’s going to discipline those shirtless, drug sniffing motherfuckers and make the country friendly for foreign investors. What’s not to like?
Hahahaha, see you picked up the tenor of the man perfectly. You’re making him sound downright cuddly.
See, you like him already.
Fuckin’ A, he be da man.
🙂 🙂 😀 I love these exchanges, :).
Hehe, well it’s a new ballgame, t’hell with that cerebral schtick.
The speech was not at all new….old points from the campaign………more interesting was the huge smile at the face of the Chinese ambassador when he walked towards Duterte when his name was called to shake hands….and the handshake was long, both hands….maybe there is a way to watch it on youtube…? Sure they look very friendly to each other so there will be no war with China… 🙂
Oh glory!
By the way, you should hear my wife’s rendition of that Candidate Duterte advertising line “My gott, I HATE drugs!” She does it better than he does.
Maybe there are more things she does better then him….hahaha… 🙂 She don’t complain about you spending 90% of your day online in the blog as long as she can have a lunch sometimes in Malacanang…. 🙂
Hahaha, yes, like cooking, I’d guess she does better (she is superb). Right, the Palace, plus throw in a trip to the mall now and then . . .
> more interesting was the huge smile at the face of the Chinese ambassador
That really does send a message to them, especially to President Xi, who’s eager to play the Great Game of geopolitical mahjongg with a new player.
I did not bother. I was busy reading the blogsite, then had my scheduled massage while the Dutertards are enjoying themselves.
I did not even bother to read the speech in PDI. What is in there to be curious about that i don’t already know? Anyway.
I wait to see and experience, the rhetoric, won’t spare precious moments to it.
Yes, that pretty much sums up my view, as well. I get so confused listening to his words that I can only await the deeds to find out the truth of things. DFA represented itself poorly at the cabinet meeting, I think. So do we have an “Abaya” In the cabinet, and . . . if so . . .what will the Chief do about it?
Ask Cayetano to time travel.
He may be an Abaya – but the effects of his goofs are not felt directly by the people.
It is an old rule of politics that internal politics trumps external politics. Most people care more about matters immediately visible to them, the abstract stuff they care of less.
Oddly enough, that’s an echo of what Finance Secretary Purisima told me, as to why the Aquino Administration had trouble talking to citizens. They were talking intangibles. People were living tangibles.
If politicians get the political dynamics of tangibles and intangibles down pat, they must be at peace and understanding of low approval ratings, then?
Hahaha. Oh, THEY get the intangibles, the voters they manipulate don’t. Besides, the approval ratings are very tangible when they hit the headlines in 48 point font, 26%.
Yup, it’s all the campaign long and after election media covered pronouncements summed up in 15 minutes by a speech writer in the universal English language, the majority of the Filipinos don’t understand, made to inspire better with quotable quotes. Pretty standard speech writing.
Beside the outgoing one, the already came one, is a pretty short guy, no?
President Aquino? No, he is taller than I expected, not short.
Yes, Duterte is shorter than Aquino in a photo.
Yep.
I knew it….the poor would not know, from the speech.
The speech is succinct enough, although purply in parts, with the occasional lawyerly phrase (“prescinding therefrom”).
http://www.mb.com.ph/full-transcript-inaugural-address-of-president-duterte/
“’I have no friends to serve, I have no enemies to harm.’ Echoing that line from many a siga movie: “Trabaho lang ‘to. Walang personalan.” (Although I’ve often thought that vigilante executions are a tad personal—at least in the view of those being executed.)
Then this:
“In this fight [against corruption and criminality], I ask Congress and the Commission on Human Rights and all others who are similarly situated to allow us a level of governance that is consistent to our mandate. The fight will be relentless and it will be sustained.”
In other words, get out of my way.
Here’s a loaded line: “On the domestic front, my administration is committed to implement all signed peace agreements in step with constitutional and legal reforms.”
He quotes Abraham Lincoln and Filipino literary warhorse F. Sionil Jose—very flattering for any writer.
But I daresay the speechwriter thought it prudent to not quote Sionil Jose’s pronouncement from a couple of months back: “Duterte represents radical change. If he is not sucked into the rotten patronage system as most of our politicians are, or assassinated, he may hasten the implosion which is already in progress, evident in the Duterte phenomenon itself and in the discrediting of so many of our institutions, from the Supreme Court to our churches to Congress,” he said.
Statements like that can be a bit of a downer, during a presidential inauguration.
Then we moved to a cabinet meeting and actual deeds, as incoming DFA Sec. Yasay started tearing down five years of good work with a few unfortunate remarks giving aid to the enemy . . . and then the screen went black.
Deeds. Chalk that one up as a major, major gaffe, sending all allies back to their secret rooms wondering what to make of this fly by night nation.
Leni’s speech:
Duterte’s speech:
The “Neue Zürcher Zeitung” (Swiss paper) calls today the Philippine’s Zero Hour.
Oh no! Did they really?
Wow. Black on black!
Just saw the video bit with Yasay. Appalling. Clearly wanting to impress, and instead making a fool of himself at the first Cabinet meeting, which was being televised in order to project the image of a hit-the-ground-running, competent administration. And things were proceeding well enough, as first meetings go. Then Yasay starts his little appeasement-before-the-fact lecture. Looks like someone must have motioned to him to shut up, and the camera suddenly veered away. One suspects the President isn’t thrilled with his DFA chief; he pointedly checked his watch seconds after Yasay started talking.
Can you attach the video here pls?
I just realized how unprepared the country is for this kind of conflict- I am pretty sure China has capability to eavesdrop on meetings like that and I don’t think Malacanang has any counter-measures for it. Is there a bubble room there with lead shielding? I don’t think so.
And there’s also hacking of mobile gadgets of our cabinet officials.
A small ship disguised as a cargo or fishing vessel can carry eavesdropping electronics and spy even from Manila Bay, which is less than 10km away.
I remember when Erap’s presidency’s was in turmoil, there was a visiting US communications ship anchored at the Bay and we were snickering at how much info they were getting from that location.
The United States had Merkel’s mobile under surveillance.
Chinese hackers allegedly attacked Germany’s Trade Ministry.
Cybersecurity has been stepped up for years now over here.
Expect China and the US to watch the Philippines like AlDub.
Unless our intelligence services advise them, and considering their ages, I don’t think the incoming Cabinet has the savvy to secure their gadgets. From low level hacker vandals, yes but China, no.
For sure.
Here you are, Andrew. It’s towards the end of the video. Around 36:00, following the President’s remarks. There would be no point in having anti-surveillance measures in place, if Yasay remains in full stream-of-consciousness mode for the duration of his term as Foreign Affairs chief.
Thanks for that resource, Vicara.
Wow, this is embarrassing for the nation: the Associated Press has already come out with a story on Yasay’s unfortunate remarks:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/140576/sensitive-ph-comments-on-sea-feud-aired-partly-on-tv
Walang taong perpekto, kahit nga Perfecto ang pangalan hehe.
I just watched it. There was nothing “sensitive” about what he said, it was basic decision tree thinking. And it’s a valid question … and China will dig in, from there the proverbial “Y” on the road.
But notice right before that issue, right before the open mic, DU30 was talking about use of violence (I’m sure for domestic affairs). Above I’ve posted a quote from Heinlein re violence, and Ireneo ‘s Machiavelli… violence is a tool, there’s a time to use it and there’s a time not to.
When’s Primer when you need him… people were offended by Primer’s presence here, but I liked what he said when it came to China. DU30 may go full retard on drug lords and drugs over there… but I gotta feeling, he’ll take the wise road when dealing with China.
Nothing sensitive? For the top diplomat in the land,that was not what I expected to see on youtube or on National TV for crying out loud.Granted it was brain storming,he could have requested that it be not televised.
I know I will be getting another that’s my point from you,you have given me a lot of pointers the whole day,I am getting immuned.So fire away with your pointers.
Here’s essentially what he said, karl,
I don’t think we should push China’s buttons
UNLOS will pass, in our favor.
When it does China will dig in,
Do we press the issue?
Our allow for a more nuanced approached (calling Primer 😉 )?
That’s the “Y” on the road, karl.
And since there was no answer, there’s nothing sensitive… had DU30 stated “Let’s go full retard and start a war with China” then that’s sensitive.
Describing the “Y” is basic, you don’t need spies to figure that one out forchrissakes ! 😉
Why is it called a fork then?
“Y” because there’s only two options really, though a fork with 4 or 3 other options is possible, but for me re China the Primer/Kissinger approach is wisest … China’s basically an autistic kid, that can be trained, so take the time to train ’em.
The TV crews director thought it was sensitive,they moved the camera away,what if there was an answer,then that was executive SNAFU number one.
That’s not to say that you guys can’t fuck with them while they are on those islands, fuck with them but by all means don’t cause a war just yet.
I’m thinking all your current sexy starlets do a nude spread, put in a magazine and ensue it’s Filipino in taste, etc. essentially Chinese personnel will be beating off to Filipinas and falling in love with the Philippines in one stroke.
“The TV crews director thought it was sensitive,they moved the camera away,what if there was an answer,then that was executive SNAFU number one.”
That’s a big what if, karl, and from that video above I didn’t see that. If so that director behind the camera is one savvy guy and should be promoted to DFA sec. — if his job was simply to document the whole thing and he’s playing one-man censor, that’s pretty ballsy. 😉
My point is that it was not sensitive, you should be coming up with how it was sensitive information.
“I’m thinking all your current sexy starlets do a nude spread”
Mocha Uson, for all we know, might do the bilateral negotiations with China.
There you go again with your pointers.
He was openly defying the rest’s wishes,including the US’s just to appease China.
It may not even need to be sensitive to create a snafu,all that needs to happen is to piss off one of our allies,and man this is nolonger campaign rhetoric we are talking about.
WTF,you are questioning Edgar for always asking for proof,what the fuck do i need to do what you want?If you feeel differently,then fine,why do you always have to explain your point exponentially?
Why do I have to feel the same way as you do? You are not giving a different view,you are shoving your view to my face.I can only take as much Lance.Talk to me later.
I’m not asking you to prove your point, karl. I’m asking you (and others) to explain how it’s sensitive information. 😉
If it’s not sensitive information then simply say you guys just don’t like his stance on China vis-a-vis US policy— but remember that before Primer came on here, I’ve been on record promoting Kissinger’s detente w/ China. Maybe Sec. Perfecto Yasay’s also a fan of Kissinger, but my point is that it’s a valid strategy, no need to get panties in a bunch 😉 over nothing.
LCPL_X, Karl has already said “talk to me later”. It is quite clear that many here are still struggling with a major loss and things are definitely not easy for them to handle.
Don’t push ’em too hard. This is not the time yet. Give them a chance to regroup.
I understand that, Ireneo… but this is not about DU30 this is about China and the Philippines (and the US) and we’ve been talking about this since last year, since I got here, but I’m sure before that too.
It’s unfair to label Sec. Yasay as some idiot because he’s somehow associated with DU30’s administration , when in fact he has a valid view, one affirmed by our top Diplomat here.
In fact, LCPL_X, the German Adenauer Foundation in Manila has labelled Duterte’s approach to China as possibly more pragmatic than the approach of his predecessor.
But you are talking to Filipinos, who act more like soccer fans watching their home team.
And Americans who think Defense, and to some extent, foreign policy, ought to be de-politicized and consistent from one administration to another, especially if there is a war going on. China is waging soft war against the West, it seems to me, so the PH needs to take care with any decision-making. Certainly, President Duterte should be briefed by defense intelligence and DFA, not just Sison, before he takes decisions or allows his DFA Sec to lay things on the public table. And I think Secretary Yasay should represent sophisticated, independently derived international thinking, not just sit as a mouthpiece (puppet) to President Duterte’s political posturing.
Fuck regrouping!
MANILA, Philippines — The new Philippine foreign secretary made sensitive remarks Thursday about territorial disputes in the South China Sea that were broadcast live by the state-run TV network before it abruptly cut away from its coverage of the new president’s first Cabinet meeting.
Foreign Secretary Perfecto Yasay’s remarks during the meeting touched on how the government should respond to a much-anticipated international arbitration ruling on July 12.
The Philippines brought its long-simmering disputes with China in the South China Sea to international arbitration in January 2013 after Beijing took control of disputed Scarborough Shoal following a standoff.
After Rodrigo Duterte was sworn in as president Thursday, he called his first Cabinet meeting, where he expressed the need for the Philippines to fully study the impact of the ruling, whether favorable or not.
Yasay spoke about an apparent wish by some foreign governments for Manila to issue a stronger statement about the dispute if the tribunal rules favorably. “I am adverse to that idea,” he told Duterte and fellow Cabinet members, echoing the president’s remarks on the need for the government to further study the ruling’s repercussions.
“There are lots of nuances that we do not know as yet,” Yasay said.
“But the bottom-line question is what will happen if the decision is in our favor,” Yasay said, adding that China could potentially “dig in and put us to a test.” If that happens, he said, “there is no point for us to yell.”
Journalists covering the president asked his spokesman why the delicate discussion was conducted on nationwide television, and if it was a mistake, but there was no immediate government explanation.
Analyst Richard Heydarian of Manila’s De La Salle University said the Philippines “is in the middle of a geopolitical chessboard, therefore, we have to exercise maximum discretion in discussing strategic options in the South China Sea, especially after the arbitration case is concluded.”
Duterte’s predecessor, Benigno Aquino III, has said the United States brokered a deal for China and the Philippines to simultaneously withdraw their ships from the fishing region around Scarborough Shoal. The Philippines complied but China reneged on the agreement and its ships continue to guard the shoal, Philippine officials say.
In its arbitration complaint, the Philippines questioned the validity of China’s vast territorial claims under the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. It also asked the arbitration tribunal in The Hague to classify whether several disputed areas were islands or low-tide coral outcrops to determine the stretch of territorial waters they project.
China has argued against the tribunal’s authority to hear the Philippine complaint, but the tribunal ruled last year that it has jurisdiction and will rule on the case. The United States, a treaty ally of the Philippines, and several other Western and Asian governments have called on China to comply with any decision.
During the administration of former President Gloria Arroyo, a crisis meeting called to discuss strategies to resolve the abduction of a Filipino hostage abroad was accidentally televised by the government network, but was cut off air after the mistake became apparent. Arroyo angrily reprimanded the network personnel who were involved, her officials said.
Yes, my point exactly. I had written a response to Irineo before reading your note. Spot on!
too much is at stake to be playing hooray for us, booo for them… My buddies will be stationed there soon. I may not have skin in the game when talking about local politics there, but this one’s sort of personal.
Oh give me a break. We live here, so it is personal for us, too. Your buddies are here because it is their job, which they signed up for. Filipinos live here, with families. Don’t legitimize your argument with crying towels. The lives of those choosing hooray or boo count, too.
“MANILA, Philippines — The new Philippine foreign secretary made sensitive remarks Thursday about territorial disputes in the South China Sea that were broadcast live by the state-run TV network before it abruptly cut away from its coverage of the new president’s first Cabinet meeting.”
Again, how was it “sensitive”?
The Philippines has invested years building and backing it’s arbitration case against China. It has represented the Philippines as firm in standing against China, under law, something no other nation has done, although some attended the oral arguments, and may contemplate cases after the decision is announced. It was sensitive because Yasay’s remarks can be interpreted as suggesting the Philippines is stepping back from its willingness to challenge China, under law. It was a huge gaffe, on day one, which someone recognized, as the camera quickly shifted from him.
Sec. Yasay is holding a press conference today, and we will see if he elaborates, reinforces or backtracks from the cabinet statements.
Don’t cause a war? That is why you have to discern what’s sensitive and what is not in order to prevent a war or just anythng to escalate.If it is not sensitive to you,it is not my problem. And there is no problem if you disagree,this is not about winning or losing an argument ,nor this is a contest of the most number if sub threads Lance.
karl, I’m simply asking how it’s sensitive. What exactly did Sec. Yasay say that any normal int’l affairs savvy person doesn’t already know?
Sensitive is not for fellow diplomats,it is for ordinary people.
Top secret is not for fellow soldiers,besides the enemy it must be secret for those who do not need to know.
If I can not answer your queries then,maybe someone else will do the honor
karl,
I don’t have time to transcribe what Sec. Yasay said verbatim, but I’ve offered a rough summary above, it’s a basic decision tree… nothing sensitive, though it departs from current trends re China.
you (and others) can disagree with this strategy (it has its basis even over here), but to go around calling it sensitive is just silly.
The people are silly, or the argument? A lot of people are being critical of Secretary Yasay. Are they silly (that is, are you descending to name-calling again), or is the argument silly because it disagrees with your view. That is, their argument is silly because it may be based on different information and principles and goals?
Joe, you guys won’t be fighting is my point, like the Neo-cons riling for war with their children safe in Ivy Leagues. It’s easy to be Hawks when you’re in the sidelines, very easy.
I notice your point shifts a lot. Our fishermen are already fighting, going out to face the Chinese water cannons and rammings. So are the people who, on independence day, sailed out to Scarborough to plant the Philippine flag. It is easy to write bravely if you are safely planted in the US, I suppose. But you need not diminish the seriousness of the situation to those who live in the playing field.
“It was sensitive because Yasay’s remarks can be interpreted as suggesting the Philippines is stepping back from its willingness to challenge China, under law. “
If you listen to what he said again, he presumes that UNCLOS will side on behalf of the Philippines, and then proceeds to outline the “Y” decision paths— inserting that he thinks a detente approach is best.
Makes sense to me, Joe. Nothing sensitive about that.
Okay, for you, that makes sense. For the hard liners, and the people who built the current strategy, it is sensitive.
It’s silly because it is not sensitive— unless you guys are using another definition for sensitive here, I’m using sensitive ala Hillary Clinton’s emails containing sensitive information.
The fact that there has been a minor uproar over it suggests it is sensitive and that you are out of the loop.
though sensitive can also be about being offended, ie. Sec. Yasay offended me, hence let’s create a tempest in a teacup. 😉
The basis for the offense is not simplistic emotions, easy for you to disparage. It is years worth of work building something they believe in.
There may not have been sensitive views in that aired First Cabinet Meeting which touched on the scheduled July 12 ruling from The Hague on the Philippine case against China, but my view — especially from one at the head of DFA — is that the non-perfect Perfecto Yasay should have waited when his statements are uttered only in a close-door Cabinet meeting . Prudence should have been used by Yasay. Has it not been already discussed that although then PE Duterte was warming up to China — and to me there are some positives to it — there is the wise suggestion voiced by some to use the expected Hague ruling going our way as a strategic leverage tool, of course, couched always in diplomatic language. An Albert del Rosario he definitely is not!
“Yasay spoke about an apparent wish by some foreign governments for Manila to issue a stronger statement about the dispute if the tribunal rules favorably. “I am adverse to that idea,” he told Duterte and fellow Cabinet members, echoing the president’s remarks on the need for the government to further study the ruling’s repercussions.
“There are lots of nuances that we do not know as yet,” Yasay said.
“But the bottom-line question is what will happen if the decision is in our favor,” Yasay said, adding that China could potentially “dig in and put us to a test.” If that happens, he said, “there is no point for us to yell.”
It is sensitive to us Filipino, Lance, here’s why:
1. Duterte said it already that he will not go to war with China over Scarburough Shoal.
2. Yasay said he’s against issuing a stronger statement even with a favorable decision.
3. Yasay said that their is no point for the Philippines to complain even if China ‘dig in and put us to a test’, meaning starts reclamation in the Scarburough Shoal.
See, Lance, can’t you see our point why we think it’s a very sensitive statement coming from the present government?
Do you think the patriotic citizens of the Philippines will just take it sitting down if this new administration of President Duterte just let their friend Communist China “dig in” in our Scarburough Shoal without a whimper?
Think about it, Lance.
Bert, et al.
So this was basically a big definition misunderstanding… sensitive information I took to be a technical term , ie. secret stuff. None of what Sec. Yasay said was sensitive.
You guys are interpreting sensitive as something emotional, that I can totally understand. I have no qualms. I for one was offended by both VP and Presidential ecumenical presentations, neither were inspiring. 😉 But I like the guitarist, they should’ve ordered him to sing more songs, to fill that 5 mins. gap of dead air.
“Our fishermen are already fighting, going out to face the Chinese water cannons and rammings. So are the people who, on independence day, sailed out to Scarborough to plant the Philippine flag.”
No they are not, Joe.. they are simply protesting, fighting is something completely different.
I’m pro-protest remember? https://joeam.com/2016/03/31/will-china-militarize-panatag-will-missiles-be-aimed-at-manila/#comment-169235
“It is easy to write bravely if you are safely planted in the US, I suppose.”
Write bravely? I’m the one arguing for the validity of detente here! LOL!
You guys are the ones scoffing at Sec. Yasay for being too soft, essentially calling for drawing proverbial red lines. When in fact the Philippines is in no position to do so—- because anything the hawks over there push, we (the US military) will end up fighting other peoples wars, yet again!
It’s not bravery, Joe… it’s reason.
The South China sea is just the tip of the ice berg. The bulk of China’s operations to undermine the Philippines hinges on corruption and crime over there.
Over here they are in real estate, Chinese students everywhere, Chinese tourist popping out “American” babies, Chinese gov’t companies incorporating subsidiaries as American companies, industrial espionage, the list goes on.
the fight is more nuanced that what’s going on in the South China sea—- at this juncture Sec. Yasay’s comment in the 1st cabinet meeting is the voice of reason.
Again the Philippines is in no position to be drawing red lines— that was Sec. Yasay’s point.
“Prudence should have been used by Yasay.”
NHerrera, I totally agree. Was it sensitive information, no. Did it have to aired so early on and as part of the inauguration festivities, no—- but then again it might have been by designed to telegraph to China that the Philippines wants detente, a more reasoned approach to solving this issue.
“3. Yasay said that their is no point for the Philippines to complain even if China ‘dig in and put us to a test’, meaning starts reclamation in the Scarburough Shoal.”
Bert,
1-2, I got the same.
3 though, I ‘m sure he didn’t say anything close to that—- can you transcribe what Sec. Yasay said and show the part you interpreted as your number 3? thanks. Because I interpreted is as ‘we shouldn’t be drawing unnecessary red lines at this juncture’ … which to me makes sense.
Remember Obama’s red lines in Syria. Red lines can either cause wars or diminish one’s standing.
Just one more thing about China and the South China Sea… in the bigger scheme of things, ie. temperatures rising, sea levels rising, etc.
The US/EU have the creativity to think outside the box (also Aetas/Badjaos, those who’ve not succumbed to consumerism) , but if we’re to scale these renewal energy options we’ll need China.
In a few years, these man-made islands China has created will be under water, so it’s pretty insignificant when dealing with the bigger picture. Food for thought… 😉
We’ll need China to scale.
“When in fact the Philippines is in no position to do so—- because anything the hawks over there push, we (the US military) will end up fighting other peoples wars, yet again!”—Lance
:), Got you there, Lance. You’re completely out of the loop as Joe said. It’s the height of condescension to say your military will be fighting other people’s war in the Scarburough when in fact your Secretary of Defense had repeatedly been warning China to keep out of the way. Freedom of navigation man, freedom of navigation, the South China is the lifeblood of your great country. You and your military will be there fighting, FIGHTING YOUR OWN WAR BUT NOT, REPEAT NOT, OTHER PEOPLE’S WAR.
As to the sensitivity thing, I will make it easy for you. Here’s a hypothetical scenario:
Manhattan Island in New York is uninhabited but guarded by Chinese Coast Guard to prevent you guys from fishing in the surrounding areas. Here comes President Obama declaring he’s not going to go to war over Manhattan Island. And in a recent cabinet meeting, your foreign affairs secretary was overheard saying…here’s the report:
:Yasay spoke about an apparent wish by some foreign governments for Manila to issue a stronger statement about the dispute if the tribunal rules favorably. “I am adverse to that idea,” he told Duterte and fellow Cabinet members,”
Yasay also said there is no point in complaining even after the issuance of a favorable decision by the Arbitration Court and even if China “dig in and put us to a test.”. “dig in; starts reclamation works. Here’s another report:
“But the bottom-line question is what will happen if the decision is in our favor,” Yasay said, adding that China could potentially “dig in and put us to a test.” If that happens, he said, “there is no point for us to yell.”
Here’s my point, Lance. In that hypothetical scenario I mentioned, which it seems to me is an apt analogy to our situation here, you and your countrymen started a ruckus for the insensitivity of your government official and then me, Bert, telling you stupid for being sensitive.
Think again, man.
Out of respect to Bert I have to answer 😉 (back to voluntary exile right after, and thanks for appreciating our talk instead of feeling that your ego has been slighted in some way, I too have learned from you :thumbsup: ).
Bert,
The current Freedom of Navigation ops right now I would categorize as fucking with China—-
though under this current US administration I’m wary, Obama doesn’t seem to understand these games, these are games played in high school and elementary, ie. if you’re gonna fuck with someone get ready to back it through (ex. Syria & Baltic Sea).
But the design of these ops isn’t to start a war—- the Gulf of Tonkin was designed to start a war, two very different things. IMHO freedom of navigation ops is up there with protesting.
And honestly the South China sea as far as navigation goes is more an issue with Japan, North Korea and Taiwan, their ships go thru there, the US Navy can go thru Sulu Sea and pop out between the tip of Palawan and Sabah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balabac_Strait
So I agree with DU30 that the US has very limited interests here, ones not really worth fighting for.
I also agree that the US is the one encouraging these strong statements to which Sec. Yasay is re-acting too. So long as they stay within strong statements that’s fine IMHO, but we know these things can escalate…
that IMHO is the issue, escalation and further militarization of the South China sea, so we can level these charges to all parties not just the Philippines. Hence the call for detente isn’t just for the Philippines, it’s for everyone involved.
I don’t know if Sec. Yasay feels an urge to push for detente since he’ll be out of office in 1 year, making room for Sec. Cayetano. Whatever his reasons, I think it was valid—- and we’ve already established it wasn’t sensitive (classified) information.
As for your analogy, I think it’s apt,
and since our two countries are intertwined (which I think is better than being intertwined with say Saudi Arabia or Pakistan), both should keep each other in check, if say the US starts going too far towards the point of no return, then the Philippines should speak up (I think this is what Sec. Yasay’s doing).
That’s basically the territory and geo-politics issue, the bigger picture is this,
Current projections of sea level rise renders these new Chinese islands moot.
China right now is killing its own people. Have you been to any of the big cities in China? They can’t even leave their homes, because of particulate matter (PM2.5) in the air. It’s about to hit tipping point IMHO , so the Communist regime will have to address it. They can oblige us anytime, 😉 a war at this point will actually save their ass.
Or they can can lead the charge in new clean renewable energy. This was the Obama administration’s biggest mistake, they went after the coal industry (effectively killing it), but instead of clean energy, they opened us (the American people) up to natural gas extraction (fracking). Granted Obama knew he can’t do a 180 degree turn, but
that’s where China comes in, all these clean energy ideas being tested out haphazardly throughout the world, still trying to figure out how to expand while doing it cheaply, that’s China’s whole point of existence, they can scale up any enterprise.
I know that’s a tall order, but my point here is that in the midst of this game of chicken, if you pan out, there’s a waaaaay bigger problem that’s already affecting China, will further affect the Philippines, hell it’s affecting me right now as I type, I wanted to go surfing today, but there’s oil slick in the water (my buddy just text me),
I can’t go to the mountains because there’s 3 forest fires going on right now (global warming = drought = dried up trees = fire). :thumbsdown:
China has the potential to change the world here , let us work instead to encourage their participation in this. If China can scale up clean energy technology, thus putting these carbon-based companies out of business, the world is a better place.
If you’re Googling the South China sea, zoom out, further and further, Google maps has a really cool feature now when you keep zooming out (check it out, Bert) … and that’s the point I’m trying to hammer here. :saint:
To be clear about a couple of things:
(1) The main objection was to your use of high falutin’ to describe Edgar’s argument. Edgar never complained, and I doubt his ego was bruised. The complaint was by others, as to the personalization of argument. Your sly dig at bruised egos continues the penchant for personalizing arguments.
(2) “Sensitive” was never defined to mean only the legal definition of classified. I viewed Sec. Yasay’s remarks as insensitive to the best interest of the Philippines as it failed to respect the work done by PH diplomats and attorneys in establishing the arbitration filing and all that supports it as a way of upholding Philippine rights. So, no, I don’t stipulate or agree to your finding.
Again, these kinds of arguments persist in the style of troll, mis-characterizing the discussion and continuing the sly personal assaults.
The argument that climate change is more important than a few islands is new to the discussion, and very compelling. It ought to be reserved for a different blog, and maybe you should write it.
p.s.~ the factories creating all that pollution are making stuff to sell in Wal-Mart, so we Americans are also killing those kids. It’s a vicious cycle. 😥
“And honestly the South China sea as far as navigation goes is more an issue with Japan, North Korea and Taiwan, their ships go thru there, the US Navy can go thru Sulu Sea and pop out between the tip of Palawan and Sabah”—Lance
Lance,
That is correct, agreed. But here’s the thing. Freedom of navigation in the South China Sea is not about the US Navy. The US Navy can pass anywhere and no one will dare stop it. Freedom of navigation in the South China Sea is about commerce. I think that if we can focus on that aspect there will be no argument between us regarding freedom of navigation in that part of the world.
Overtime, they, the new men/women will learn to be guarded, prudent with their statements, televised or not. Brain work first, before lips, to impress.
sensitive vs. insensitive
1. sensitive. You’re right I think edgar was having as much fun as I was. As for ‘others’ , it could be that they need to have thicker skins, or enjoy these intercourse like everyone else. Or maybe this is a cultural issue and I need to take some sensitivity training. But when ideas and opinions are put thru the wringer, if you’ve attached your ego to them, it’ll hurt— so don’t attach your ego. I’ll try to be more sensitive, Joe, but it’s just not my style.
2. insensitive. “THE new Philippine foreign secretary has made sensitive remarks about territorial disputes in the South China Sea that were broadcast live by the state-run TV network before it abruptly cut away from its coverage of the new president’s first Cabinet meeting.” I was re-acting to that quote— so you’re right Joe sensitive should be changed to insensitive.
As for that blog article, I’ll see if I can write something on this (good way to spend an self exile). And i think I can connect it to socialism as per chempo’s request, and that to environmentalism per Micha’s discussion above and consumerism, your skin whitening products (all made in China, no?) vs. disaster preparedness/risk reduction mentality, connect that to climate change.
I’ll see you guys in a few weeks then, let me get cracking on this. 😉
😜my ego was not bruised,but my body was from all the points you scored in our fencing match. Touché.Next time let us use laser pointers,for star wars effect.
There you go, Joe, no harm no foul, which only leaves bill’s complaints! 😉 I take it everyone’s happy then?
Will bring laser pointers, next time, karl 😉 ! Give me some time to write this thing.
No, I’m not happy, and I’m the big gorilla in this room.
Try to add that China controls the commodiies market.
And the end of the petrodollar because of yuan.
I personally have no qualms offending bill—- so status quo, everyone? 😉
karl, will look into that, thanks!
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2015/09/22/china-yuan-commodities-currency/
Or maybe you don’t appreciate how difficult it is to generate discussions that are forthright and open and don’t contain all this personal aspersion horseshit. Like, you could be helping instead of fighting it. Just stick with the issues. If you can’t abide by the editorial terms of the blog, you can’t contribute here.
*******
The exchange was painful because it was unintelligent.
*****
Just watching & waiting & wondering here…
The national elections in Australia have my attention
With just a long side glance
At the corp’s stirring
*******
Bill,
From our previous remarks here, people would have gathered the impression that Oz politics is orderly, systematic and humdrum.
Well, yesterday’s cliffhanger was anything but bereft of drama. We may have to wait until Tuesday to know whether the Liberal Party retains government.
Ours is not just a two-party system, but a multi-party one — including such outre ones as the “Shooters, Fishers and Farmers,” “Animal Justice Party,” “Pirate Party,” and “Australian Sex Party.”
For the first time in my life, I ranked that last-mentioned party number 6 in my preferential vote — just out of whim when I was in the polling booth. Later I checked what they stood for and — blimey! — I was disappointed and chuffed at the same time.
The party was formed over the concern of religion’s influence in politics. Its many policies include abortion (for); animal welfare and cruelty (against cruelty); assisted reproduction and surrogacy equality (for LGBTI couples to have access); head of state (against monarchy); biodiversity (for), constitutional reform (for bill of rights formulation); conversion therapy (against gays turning into non-gays); adult industry discrimination (against discrimination); drug law reform (for decriminalization); dying with dignity (for voluntary euthanasia); foreign aid (for increase); fracking (against); government funding of religious schools (against); and religious tax exemption (against exemption).
I list the above to show how even a small party can have such a varied and extensive platform.
The party has participated in 3 federal elections and 4 state elections. It has not won any seats federally and just one seat in Victoria state. I believe it has just received enough votes in each election to get government funding, which is another salient feature of Oz politics.
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Hi Edgar,, yes Australian politics is definitely interesting this time round..My own local member in the seat of Mayo, in South Australia got a very big boot up his bum. Punishment comes swift even for a minister,when you get drunk in Hong Kong and make advances on a young female P A at a bar.
Also some in the extreme right of the Liberal party in NSW & Victoria, lead by Abbot thought that they could get away with closing down the Australian car industry in favor of imports without being punished …Optimistic idiots !!!
The train wreck has been coming since early 2015..PM Abbot was replaced by Turnbull to try & avert it. And he almost succeeded..but not quite..
The Australian public sees pollies ( yes & I intend the pun with birds ) as our servants.If they get beyond their station & listen instead to foreign fucking ‘experts’, we the people will fuck them..End of story..
There is more to come out yet..
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I have heard of the MP Briggs fiasco.
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PS I know Nick Xenphon..He is a good hearted and intelligent man..It’s good that good leadership draws the public’s support.
The seat of Mayo in the Adelaide Hills is usually a safe Liberal seat reflecting the rural communities and small towns in it..Quite high Lutheran church going population And the new member for mayo was a former employee of Mr Briggs in his office & member of the Liberal party.Now it is part of the Nick Xenphon Team party list.. I read that even a former Liberal leader of the State parliamentary party voted for her to get rid of Briggs.
The whole thing reminds me of last week’s Brexit..Similar electoral forces in play
I was interested by the way Du30 walked around with retiring president Aquino at the oath ceremony. He had his hand in pockets the whole time..Now that may mean a preference for less formality OR perhaps his way of saying “I’m the boss here”.
But that’s a non Filipino perspective and I may be completely wrong.. Just thinking..
Someone’s dad once wrote about Presidents over there and saluting (karl’s or sonny’s ?) , and I saw exactly that… the only folks saluting (not the informal salute to greet) should be those in uniform, a simple bow, nod or right hand of the heart will suffice.
but I like DU30 shirt, less adorned compared to others, very simple. Leni’s dress too. I thought both Ecumenical services were a joke, they should’ve simply invited a poet or two.
My dad Lance.I don’t want to copy it here again, the headline had large fonts when it was published.
I am having insomnia again.
I think you can’t sleep because you’re just very excited for DU30, ie. what’s he gonna do tomorrow, it’s a first date with a girl and you know you’re gonna get some 😉 Go to sleep already, bud, day shifts here. 😉
Karl, can you send such copy to pls? At your convenience. Thanks. LG
Stiff learning curve on presidential behavior. He needs longer tutorials on protocol.
Promised “metamorphosis” coming not soon.
It was interesting watching GMA news just of the swearing in ceremony for Duterte today..They showed footage of his supporters gathered together to watch the ceremony in Davao…And it was very noticeble : the people is Davao applauding, crying, watching were all clearly poor.
While in Manila those at the ceremony were all well dressed, not a mole to be seen, shining in white barongs and polished shoes..Clearly the elite of the Philippines.
But Leni’s ceremony had a mix of young & old; rich & poor…well dressed and those who dressed as well as thy could.. Very interesting..
Things will be completely different six years from now – for better or for worse.
The microcosm of Philippine society well represented, they who elected her.
Sigh. More on Ya-sigh.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/06/30/world/asia/ap-as-south-china-sea.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
I can’t understand. One party with one presidential candidate wants to go in direction A, another party with a VP wants to go in a different direction B. Then most people decide they want to go to A, to create a safety net in case something happens we created a spare, a VP. But what has the spare leader to do when she takes over, against her conviction follow preferred direction A or disregard the largest voting group and go to B?
The analogy with marriage would be: you want to marry A (PDP-Laban) and your will reflects this, but you parents who have to execute your will tell they will transfer your wealth to lady B (Liberal). How would you feel? And how would the children of ladies A and B feel?
Why did the constitution build in this conflict?
I don’t think people thought in those conceptual terms, voting for both Duterte and Robredo. More likely people voted for Duterte and Marcos or Cayetano as a tandem, and for Roxas and Robredo as a tandem. But a dislike of Poe’s VP, or Marcos’, or others’, caused enough votes to flow to Robredo to put her above Marcos. She won because she is smart, attractive and relates well to everyday people.
You’d have to consult the records or experts as to why P and VP can be of different parties. I believe that will be corrected under the Federalism proposal.
The American VP is often just a spare tire, I would note. One of their important functions is to be there in the event the President can’t serve. Nice job, actually. Lots of naps, time with the grandkids, that kind of thing.
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According to my research, it was due to the Quezon-Osmena conflict, both of whom belonged to the same party, the Nacionalista Party, although to different factions (or wings). The drafters of the 1935 Constitution wanted to lessen the rivalry. If the pair were elected as one ticket, the vice-presidential candidate (Osmena) would have to play second fiddle to the presidential candidate (Quezon)… because they would have gotten the same number of votes.
Whereas if Osmena garnered more votes than Quezon, then he did not have to play second fiddle… although he was, in fact, one.
Indeed, Osmena won a more impressive victory, 812K vs. 695K votes.
Not sure how historically accurate this is. Seems a bit silly.
In the US, presidents and vice-presidents were also elected separately. But because of electoral college deadlock, the 12th Amendment was introduced in 1804.
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Re: Yasay’s debut performance at the first official cabinet meeting.
Maybe Allan PC will outdo him when he takes over in 2017. I thought some of you guys checked Yasay, as in gave him a 👍.
I don’t know many of the new cabinet members.
I herein retract my premature thumbs up and ask you to flip that fist upside down. It has taken five years to construct a firm position, and three days to take it all back. Best we look to Assoc. Justice Carpio for reason on the WPS and hope the new DFA guys get better material and diplomatic composure.
👎🏻Though methinks,he was basing his talking points from Duterte’s pronouncements that he does not want to go to war.But a tougher stance for me does not mean war.
But that is just me and I am a nobody,in fact when I ask my dad,I got an ambiguous answer, we can not afford to earn the ire of any one was his answer.
That is why even if I disagree with Lance,it was a scenario planning and full of decision trees and flow charts. Speaking of decisions read Edgar’s piece.
Will have the JD article for breakfast in the morning. That alone should make my Tuesday, especially, if the 🌨 does not sprinkle well my garden🌾
Allrighty👍🏻
This talk of any one party going or not going to war over Scarburough Shoal is I think a bit premature and downright pure speculating. Let’s just wait for China’s next move in the Scarburough and then I think that’s the right time to place our bets on the table. But since we’re into it already and it’s so much fun, better to continue with our speculating, hehe.
Here’s mine:
1. Duterte’s bilateral talk with China allowing China construction in the Scarburough Shoal will cook his goose.
2. Construction in the Scarburough will force the AFP to start hostile moves to avert that construction with or without Duterte’s approval.
3. China has nothing to gain from a running conflict in the area of Scarburough Shoal.
4. China should get out and away from the Scarburough Shoal if they know what’s good for them.
5. I hope Duterte knows what’s good for him.
Haaay, sarap mag-speculate, :).
As I did not watch the inaugural, nor read the speech in any paper, this the first time, I read some excerpts of the speech. An inspiring inaugural speech (like a John Kennedy’s), it’s not; sounded more like a BRIEFER to the other branches of government, in a manner that the executive lords over them. Warning meeting, of a sort.
Duts needs a better speech writer. That inaugural speech is so lame. Who wrote that? Mocha Uson?
Willie the Poor…The Prez’s speech writer has been his speech writer for years, the speech writer claims. Don’t recall his name.
Jesus Melchor Quitain
Yeah, that’s it. Thanks Karl.
Quitain said that the speech, days before it was delivered and became a 15 min. piece, will bring the Pres closer to the Filipinos and will get to know him better.
Did it really? Was there the usual post speech analysis by pundits and analysts? What have you read or heard? Me nothing.
Out all day yesterday, so did not read Randy David’s PDI opinion yesterday till just now. He had a mild, respectful take on the speech, in general, until the last 3 paragraphs of the piece. I agree with him.
I think I am liking Duterte especially if he proves to be an equal opportunity salvager of alleged criminals. I heard you can go to to your baranggay captain to get someone on the salvage list. “Oy si Pidro na mukhang instik na parating naka short itim, pusher yon!”, and Bob’s your uncle. Next day Pidro will be lying in the canal, rotting like yesterday’s discarded bangus.
Now my question is does Duterte have a number that he is shooting for? say if 100k alledged pusher are killed, can we move on to another class of criminals?
The ones I am thinking of don’t even require a list. Their names have appeared, not just in local papers, but in the New York Times, etc for years. Some articles going back as far back as 1972. In some cases foreign governments have provided proof of their crimes!
What are we waiting for? It’s long overdue. Pres Duterts let’s line up these types at the Luneta!
Sure, we are already way down the slippery slope. Might as well go for it.
DBT n Joe….Amen😉. But 6 years not enough to kill all types of criminals, known or not, alleged or not, hiding or up and about. Our Digs need another term for that. But wait, 6 mos. max. is enuff for druggies, the Luneta shootings can be done in less time than 6 years. So Prez Leny shall have a zero list for crimes. Lots of .😂😅😂