A primer on the organizers of the Aquino resign movement

tatad arguelles

Columnist Tadad, Archbishop Arguelles [Source: CBCP News]

 

By Andrew Lim

We did a similar piece before on the DAP critics.  While several cast members are similar, there are some notorious additions. We also divine their motivations and add colorful descriptions.

GROUP 1 –  Marxist-Leninist-Maoists.

Inaccurately called by media as leftists, militants, or progressives for convenience, the Makabayan reps, the above ground organizations like GABRIELA, BAYAN MUNA, ACT, etc. and the CPP-NPA-NDF comprise this group.

Can you really believe they sympathize with the families of the SAF 44? They have been calling policemen and the military as fascists all these years, and now they pretend to be one with them. They have conducted agaw-armas operations (arms seizure) against the PNP in the past. They have assassinated and kidnapped policemen before.  

It has always been ideology for this group and never principles. Power is something to be gained either through elections, protracted revolutionary war, or legal organizations. The end goal is the establishment of a “national democratic” government preparatory to building a communist state, where private industries have been nationalized and the Communist Party sits on top of government. The free market system will be replaced by a command form of economy, where the Party dictates everything.

GROUP 2 – National Transformation Council.

Rene Saguisag calls them the National Transmogrification Council (transmogrification is grotesque and ugly change). I call them KASUCLAM-SUCLAM (Kapisanan ng mga Subok na Corrupt Loyalists ni Arroyo at Marcos) because they are populated with such personalities. Norberto Gonzales who was Arroyo’s defense secretary leads them, along with Marcos loyalist Kit Tatad. As for the Cojuangcos (Peping and Tingting), you tell me if it is in the best interest of the country when hacienderos who blocked genuine land reform plot takeovers.

GROUP 2a– Political bishops.

Part of the National Transmogrification Council, in a class by itself because of its  institutional pulpit. Mad as hell over the RH law, these five clerics (Vidal, Villena, dela Cruz, Bactol and Capalla) led by Arroyo backer Archbishop Ramon Arguelles have made it their purpose to oust Aquino by all means. Add to that retired Oscar “I oppose everything in this world” Cruz.

They have not heeded the wisdom that if the Church marries a political cause, it becomes a widow in the next generation. How can one now believe the homilies coming out of the mouths of these pastors?  Perhaps it is time to write Pope Francis and ask if this kind of activity is sanctioned by the Church.

GROUP 3 – Marcos and Arroyo loyalists/journalists.

Having seen their former patron get ousted and suffer, they are spending the rest of their lives trying to destroy the Aquino administration as payback.

Kit Tatad, Yen Makabenta, Jojo Robles – Tatad has been having wet dreams of ousting Aquino since 2010. How he marries his staunch Catholicism with his Marcosian politics is beyond comprehension. Yen Makabenta, a former Marcos speechwriter still uses a 30 year old sepia toned picture for his column at the Manila Times. He looks far more wasted than that.

Everyone knows Jojo Robles as the Romualdez family’s fair haired boy, editor of their newspaper the Manila (sub) Standard. He has been sniping at Aquino since Day One of this administration (stories on smoking on the plane, playing video games, inventing “confidential sources” for his columns, etc)

Ricardo Saludo, Rigoberto Tiglao  –  Stung by the treatment of Gloria Arroyo, they have made it their life’s purpose to get back at Aquino at all cost. Saludo makes it appear he is a religious man in his columns as if  there is a moral basis for his advocacy.

The Manila Times of former Arroyo spinmeister Dante Ang is the refuge of these people.

Expect them plus former Arroyo officials including the likes of Renato Corona and Hermogenes Esperon to join future Aquino-resign rallies.

These are the groups trying to destabilize the situation and exploit it for their own nefarious ends. One interesting facet though is they are unwilling to be inconvenienced by their cause (unlike anti-Marcos activists in the past who had to go underground and change lifestyles radically), so they remain above ground and resort to double speak instead, hoping it triggers something.

Lastly, there is a group aching to destroy government because it means a chance their cases will be dismissed, since a change in leadership means new appointees to the DOJ, NBI and judiciary. This is:

GROUP 4 – The indicted, the ousted.

Into this category falls those who have been removed from power, and/or have been indicted for corruption charges.The pork scammers, the campaign law violators, the impeached, etc.

Do you want these kind of people to make a comeback just because Aquino fumbled?  Remember, Aquino may be flawed, but he is not malicious like these people.

 

 

Comments
212 Responses to “A primer on the organizers of the Aquino resign movement”
  1. Noel Parin says:

    They’re a bunch of idiots!

  2. karl garcia says:

    How can Binay deny being a party to this?Tatad is a special counsel at the OVP, I know that is not evidence enough, but come on.

    google search result:

    “Kit Tatad | LinkedIn
    https://www.linkedin.com/pub/kit-tatad/42/245/784
    NCR – National Capital Region, Philippines – ‎Special Counsel at Office of the Vice President of the Republic of the Philippines
    Kit Tatad. Special Counsel at Office of the Vice President of the Republic of the Philippines. Location: NCR – National Capital Region, Philippines; Industry …”

  3. PinoyInEurope says:

    Not to forget that the leftists used to have very good ties to Communist China, being Maoist. Wonder who close those ties are now, but they might still exist. The leanings of the Manila Standard are quite clear if you read it just a few times.

    These are what I call Pavlovian dogs = the Pavlov experiment was about ringing a bell every time dogs were brought food. They became so conditioned that they began to salivate every time they heard a bell. So we have leftists starting to bark when they hear USA, the Manila Standard starts to bark when it hears or sees anything resembling Aquino, other groups bark when they see or hear Binay (if I were a watchdog I would not just bark, but also bite him) instead of thinking.

    • Pavlovian dogs indeed! What an apt comparison..LOL

    • PinoyInEurope says:

      As for Kit Tatad, he is dead as disco, as out of style and forgotten as Victor Wood. Just like Tingting Cojuanco is a former socialite who now looks like Michael Jackson in his final days. OK those who support Noynoy just because he is an Aquino are also fools – I appreciate those who see his accomplishments and not just him or his family name, just like I appreciate those who criticize the BBL or how Aquino handled Mamasapano but still respect the President (at least the position even if they do not respect the person), the nation and the state, because these are people who are really thinking of the good of the country, not just which group is in power or just being fans or haters without thinking.

      • BFD says:

        I think the outcomes that the Mamasapano Incident brought are:

        1. Corruption issues should be resolved at the fastest time possible so that we can move on as a nation.

        2. Coordination between AFP and PNP should be the SOP in every operation against High Value Targets, devising ways that would not alert the object of the operation to be warned of impending operation with sudden unusual troop movements.

        2. The BBL should be founded on terms and conditions that is not inimical to the interest of the Filipino people and should be studied more closely now.

        3. Better procurement of better weapons for the troops on the ground, especially now that it has brought to the fore the weaponry of the secessionist groups.

        4. File charges to those destabilizers and coup platters….

        • PinoyInEurope says:

          5. Since people have become mature enough to accept that sometimes you need foreigners to help – the U.S. for example on counterterrorism – get help in dealing with rebels and terrorists from the best. For invasive operations, hire experts who used to be with the French foreign legion and know exactly how to fight in the jungle – better than Americans in my opinion. For counterterrorism, hire experts from Israel – they have the best stategic experience in dealing with terrorist groups, from bitter experience. Send the best guys from the Philippines – SAF and Scout Rangers – to yearly international Special Forces competitions where the US is, but not only, so they see how the other guys work. See if one can make a practical alliance with the Vietnamese, not only against China because that is a common enemy, but also because the Vietnamese are not potential enemies like the Malaysians and because they know how to fight in the jungle.

          • sonny says:

            From out at left field. Just as there are high value targets (unfriendlies) there must be high-value friendlies also. In this context, the PNoy watch is at the last stage. If good institutions must have a beginning. Maybe it serves us well to watch those people now also. If a profile for a civic savior is needed, I suggest Cincinnatus because we as a society seem similar to his times. He may not resemble one person among us but a group is not farfetched.

          • sonny says:

            PiE, I consider my late father-in-law in the warrior class of persons. He belonged to the cadre of trainors that were distributed to train the first divisions of the Philippine Commonwealth. He was a member of the USAFFE force that took on the first wave of Japanese invaders at the tip of Luzon. He spent the rest of his resistance effort with mobile guerilla groups that did hit and run tactics along the Ilocos coast until his capture, torture and execution in 1944. He completed his full officer training from UPROTC, Los Banos. My mother-in-law got her notice of his priority: GOD, COUNTRY, FAMILY.

            I mention this because he and many of the Filipino first joiners of those commonwealth cadres were of similar mold. And I have them always at the back of my mind when I listen and read about our current and future armed forces’ engagements and affairs.

        • sonny says:

          BBL and weapons not a good mix at all. This is the proverbial camel or Trojan horse.

          • Joe America says:

            The BBL I believe, has provisions for stepwise disarmament. I envision the BBL as being “life through a thousand cuts”, where little stepwise progressions eventually bring a warlike region into a healthy economy and peaceful jobs. It may be a pipe dream, but I like it better than the vision of headless soldiers in bags. Sorry for the graphics . . .

      • pinoyputi says:

        I still play Maruja by Victor Wood once in a while. True, a bit old fashioned but then again still beautiful. Kit Tatad might be as old fashioned but a little more dangerous. Luckily only few take him seriously but his Binay friends.

    • PinoyInEurope says:

      One more thing: I do respect Aquino as a person – and of course his position as President. He does act a bit strange, but some of his strange body language and smiling even when it is not appropriate may have something to do with the bullet in his neck – reminds me of some people whom I have seen with spinal cord injuries from car accidents. It isn’t fair to judge him on that basis – Filipino society is in many ways backward and definitely not politically correct, making fun of people based on their being short, bald, dark, crippled or anything out of the normal. OK Noynoy does look and act weird (“Abnoy”) and is “panot”, but that should not be the criteria to judge him as a president. It should only be his work: I see the good work on the economic side, the political side I am not fully convinced but let the final judgement on his term take place when he has finished it end of June 2016.

      • I give him high marks for kicking out the midnight appointee SC chief; making possible for the court to put in hospital arrest the one who rudely usurped his appointing power as incoming presidential elect; making possible the detention of the plunderers (the three senators and lately, a governor). I don’t worship him, but he does mean business when he says “walang mahirap kung walang kurap” (there will be no poor if there are no corrupt politicians).

        • PinoyInEurope says:

          The moment he jails his uncle Peping and aunt Tingting for inciting rebellion, I will be truly convinced. Corona and Arroyo might also be just personal agenda. Letting out a coup plotter like Trillanes just because he is one his side – likewise.

          But then again, he has to start somewhere. I see him as a transitional figure – from the old clan-based partisan politics of the Philippines to a more professional way of governing. He is still partly doing things the old way (personal contacts like Purisima) and doing some things the new way. More so than Arroyo, who was also a transitional figure, bringing in a lot of economic professionalism but unfortunately not only personal like Aquino still is but also corrupt like Aquino is not. The modernization of the Philippines is an ongoing process. In fact I think it is going very quickly – the destabilizers are a last stand of the old school, it is actually amusing to see how out of style they are and how most people do not really buy their bullshit and prefer to go to work instead of joining their stupid rallies.

          • I’m glad that he included Corona and Arroyo in his personal agenda as I believe others too, so it is a national agenda… I don’t believe what others keep on calling him “a vindictive president”… I’m not his apologist, I did not vote for him, I’m pro-Philippines, I want my country stable and free from corrupt leaders.. It’s a shame he’ll only be a transitional president but I pray that the next one will continue to strive for more economic progress, stability, clean and accountable government.

      • Pallacertus says:

        The pejoratives you mention they bring to the fore based on what they think of his and his administration’s work. They’re not at all taking a measure of the man based on the number of his hairs or the weirdness of his actions; flip it over and one comes closer to the way they see Noynoy (or at least how I think they see Noynoy).

        As for notions of political correctness — hey, it’s life, and what’s more, it can get quite comic, and I like comedy. (That, or Penn and Teller doing a few magic tricks on me, making me recall things that never aired on Solar TV — or was it Jack? too much haze here).

      • rico mambo says:

        “may have something to do with the bullet in his neck…” Or maybe something else. See, there were rumors before of some psycho disorder. So if it’s something about that bullet, then he deserves sympathy instead.

    • karl garcia says:

      Woof woof

    • macspeed says:

      He he he he grrrr, grrrrr….

      grrrrr, grrrrr

      I am angry with what are these idiots are doing, look at kit tatads corrupt posture, he is like he earned more than enough to have that insulting smile…

  4. Andrew, in your Group 3, you forgot to mention other Arroyo loyalists. In the The Philippine Star leaders, there is Carmen “Chit” Pedrosa, notorious among Star readers for disabling Disqus comments on her columns. She has been talking about the NTC long before the Mamasapano incident; in fact, she has been writing about such a plan since at least 2013. She is a known Arroyo loyalist (she once held different positions during GMA’s term, such as being the head of the Cultural Center of the Philippines at some point), and I’ve heard rumors (reliability unknown, since I’m not very familiar with her) that she is also a Marcos apologist, which, if true, would be surprising, given that she and her husband were vocal Marcos critics back in the day. You also forgot to mention the worst of them all, up there with Tatad: Valeriano “Bobit” Avila from Cebu. Like Pedrosa, Avila had served various positions under the Arroyo administration, such as being a board member of the Mactan-Cebu Airport’s administration board, and apparently also at one point being Cebu’s traffic czar. He also once ran for a position a long time ago (I cannot find what position, but probably for congressman), but was defeated. The sad part is that, when I was younger, he was my favorite columnist. I loved his stories about Cebu and his columns made sense. But I don’t think he ever got over the loss of his “manok” Gibo back in 2010. In fact, one thing common to Avila and Pedrosa is that, from Day 1, they believe that the PCOS was not to be trusted and Aquino was illegitimately elected. They had been advocating a return to manual elections. Also, both columnists are anti-RH Law and are connected to the conservative wing of the Catholic Church (Avila in particular). There are also other anti-Aquino/pro-Arroyo columnists in the Star, such as Alex Magno and Federico Pascual (who is a cabalen), as well as a former pro-Aquino turned anti-Aquino columnist, Atty. Jose Sison (not to be confused with Joma), who is also a conservative Catholic and a known NTC supporter. Luckily, it seems that most of the Star readership, much like most bishops in the Philippines, disowned the NTC. A Disqus commenter called Keef_riffhard even called the NTC the “Nonsense Talking Clowns”.

    My next comment will be about the leftists.
    (To be continued)

  5. Now, this is where my being a UP student kicks in. One of my professors this semester is Cleve Arguelles, a former UP student regent (I’m not keeping him anonymous as he’s pretty much a public figure). He is also a member of an activist group, but I have yet to ask him which one (probably either Anakbayan/Kabataan or LFS). I have nothing against him: in fact, I respect his opinions and as one of my professors I hold him in high regard. He’s a good guy, and unlike some other militants he’s respectful of other opinions; in fact, he actually encourages us to speak out our opinions. The other day, we had a “discourse” on Facebook. I asked him what would happen next should Aquino resign or be replaced. He and another student linked me to Teddy Casino’s blog. Casino suggested that a “transitional council” (not the NTC) composed of, in Sir Arguelles’ words, “credible and independent citizens. Their job is to establish a Truth Commission and prepare the country for a free, fair, and credible national elections. The people will still decide, following the idea of a civilian government/Constitution.” I could go on and talk more about him and the leftist stance, but I’ll just finish with this link: https://clevearguelles.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/the-mercenary-tradition-of-afppnp/. To cut a long story short, I don’t really understand how he could be supporting the President’s resignation when he doesn’t consider the Brave 44 as heroes. He did post this, “While I do not see them as heroes, I do not want my fellow Filipinos, police or not, to be used as cannon fodders for a suicidal mission directed by a foreign government that is obsessed with its war against its self-created terrorists'”, I don’t really understand what he means.

    • Forgot to mention this: the “transitional council” is fine with me, at least on paper Binay won’t be involved (unless of course he sneaks in or puts “dummies” in it). My problem is that I can’t help but feel this would essentially a junta, much like Thailand. Also, this “council”, I can’t help but think, sounds similar to how communist governments took over in other countries. What do you think, Joe and the others?

      • Definitely not..
        We have a democratic government in place..if something happens to the president or he resigns the VP will take over….no council whatever name or composition should take over…the left are contemplating a revolution, a bloody one at that..regular.election is just a year and and a half or less away..we need to find a good candidate acceptable to the well informed electorate

        • PinoyInEurope says:

          Senator Alan Peter Cayetano has made the best impression on me so far.

          He could be a good president, both on economic and political sides.

      • PinoyInEurope says:

        NTC, what for? There is a working government. Let them do their job and finish it properly.

        A transitional council is not elected, it is self-appointed. There are elections next year.

        • Fine with me, in that, as long as it doesn’t involve Binay, it *could* have been a good idea. The problem is that it’s coming from the leftists, and knowing what happened in countries like Russia or North Korea, this is essentially a coup that would benefit no one but the left.

      • In order for our country’s institutions to grow and strengthen one must start with respecting laws and especially the constitution(not by the letter but in spirit). Always pursuing extra-legal or as secretary De Lima stated possibly illegal activities. We must be for stability and calculated change. Our country is in the cusp of success let’s not fuck this up.

    • PinoyInEurope says:

      “While I do not see them as heroes, I do not want my fellow Filipinos, police or not, to be used as cannon fodders for a suicidal mission directed by a foreign government that is obsessed with its war against its self-created terrorists’”. Isn’t hard to understand.

      Many leftists see the US is the ones behind the Marwan capture and the SAF as cannon fodder. Many see the MILF as a so-called “false flag” group created by the US to justify counterterrorist measures. Similar to international leftists who suspect/think that the US coordinated the World Trade Center attacks themselves in order to justify Homeland Security and the War Against terror, or Russian propaganda that says the Maidan uprising in the Ukraine was backed by the CIA in order to chew on Russia’s borders.

      A part of what Arguelles writes is correct, some AFP and some PNP especially the old Constabulary under Marcos have been human rights abusers. But the fact that these two institutions have helped the people a lot during natural calamities has redeemed them.

      Otherwise there would not have been that much sympathy for the SAF 44 – I remember the old days when army, police and PC were “kalaban” to many and government was disliked – a holdover from colonial days when government and all were perceived as foreign.

      It is a good sign that even leftists have begun to see government forces as fellow Filipinos. Seeing Muslims as fellow Filipinos is not yet fully realized everywhere, but many have learned to differentiate between Muslim Filipinos who only want equality and terrorists who are being used by foreign Jihadist interests as well as Malaysian imperialist interests. Nonetheless there is a true nation emerging if even American migrants like Joe are being patriotic in a good sense, meaning concerned about their new home. Some leftists and maybe even some old-school nationalists might even suspect Joe of being CIA, but I my impression by now is that Joe would tell any “men in black” to fuck off if they came to visit. 🙂

      • Funny though that more than 44 SAF members have been killed by the NPA over the years (I think in 2014 alone there were 40+ soldiers killed by the NPA, not necessarily SAF, but still), but the leftists never condemned this. Heck, Casino even indirectly defended the NPA during a senatorial election debate with Risa Hontiveros. When asked by Risa why the left was silent on NPA abuses, Casino said he’d rather focus on the abuses on the military. Good point, but in this context, it can worry people to believe that Casino is a commie sympathizer. No wonder Risa almost won while Casino lost miserably.

        • PinoyInEurope says:

          The problem of the Philippines is groups wanting power for themselves, pointing a the mistakes of the others and ignoring their own. On all sides I see this defect – the leftists, many of the extreme yellow sympathizers, the old Marcos/Arroyo loyalists, definitely the different Muslim partisan groups. Only a few who think of the whole nation, its future and the well-being of the people, regardless of the way they prefer to take.

          • It’s kind of ironic that the leftists used to be so anti-Gloria in the past, but now they’re being linked to people who are known Gloria analysts. As Kim Atienza would say, “weather weather lang yan”.

            • PinoyInEurope says:

              It’s rarely really people power – it is usually some people wanting to have power.

              Just like a wrote: real causes are rare in the Philippines, it is usually just groups wanting power under a pretended cause. Those who really care for the country are rare.

              • *typo, should have said “Gloria loyalists”, not “Gloria analysts”.

                Which is why people like Monsod and Joe are fresh air. They truly care for the country, giving credit when credit is due and criticism when criticism is due (Joe for example is pro-Aquino but he has criticized Mar and Purisima). It’s kind of weird but at the same time nice to see that an expat has come to love his new home to the extent that he is serving the Filipino interest instead of personal interest.

                @Joe: I’m thinking about writing an article in the near future, about my experiences and observations about the left. Is this okay with you?

              • Joe America says:

                Absolutely okay with me, MKL, and the left is always a popular subject. Fire away!

              • PinoyInEurope says:

                Yes, Joe is pro-Aquino but:

                1) I found an old article by him where he wrote that Aquino had convinced him. He was not pro-Aquino in the beginning, in fact he had doubts about him. I respect that he found his pro-Aquino stance by analysis and observation, not by being a blind “yellowist”.

                2) He has never “barked” at me even though I am critical of Aquino – not anti-Aquino – and is smart enough to know the difference. So an old American Labrador like him and a partly tamed Filipino street dog like me can actually get along. 🙂

              • Joe America says:

                And I would add to your fine testimony 🙂 that I get to being pro-Aquino because my starting position is that of being pro-Philippines, and I think he is very, very good for the Philippines. Not perfect. But better than Villar or Gordon or Teodoro or Roxas or . . . well, I forgot who all the 2010 candidates were. And if you look at results, the debt ratings, the economic stability and growth, the 60,000 new school classrooms, the adept handling of certain crises, major infrastructure investments, etc. etc. . . . gadzooks, what MORE could people ask for.

                They think 15% annual growth is possible on this bag of economic bones?

                Well, okay maybe a different DOTC head, FOI and a few other things. But it amazes me that I have to sell Filipinos on the merits of their own president when the nation is doing so much better than before.

              • PinoyInEurope says:

                It actually surprised me that the Philippines how has a substantially better Moodys credit rating than Greece. I should actually tell some of my Greek friends but not those who are as nationalistic and sensitive as Pinoys. I know one though who would heartily laugh..

                Noynoy is in my point of view a transitional personality from old group-based politics to politics based on results and facts. Come on, the Greeks are only now graduating from family-based politics – the Karamanlis and Papandreou families come to mind…

              • Pallacertus says:

                Memory lane, how I miss treading on you! (Please let me indulge: this is ostensibly about informing you of the more obscure presidentiables who could’ve been real presidential timber if only they and their causes were more known the year Noynoy joined the fray. You can always say bye-bye to this later as I get all bleary-eyed on no one’s account.)

                Joe, you forgot Nicanor Perlas. Now you may not have come across him before, but I’m raising up his name anyway, partly because I voted for the poor guy in 2010 (a pamphlet whose contents I can’t recall that I lost a long while back, morbid fascination with fighting the damned good fight, all that woolly idealistic shit), and partly because he’s quite the exception among past candidates for president. The likes of whom PinoyInEurope thinks are better served rare.

                (Well, there was also Eddie Villanueva, father of current TESDA chief Joel, host of his own talk show on GMA News TV — painfully sincere and well-meaning man under all that televangelist baggage that he carries around to every Jesus is Lord gathering like a millstone — but the less said about him or JIL the better.)

              • Joe America says:

                @Pallacertus: Well, my memory isn’t as sharp as it was when I was a cracker-jack youngster such as yourself. 🙂

              • @Pallacertus: You also missed JC Delos Reyes and Jamby Madrigal, but the less said about them the better.

            • Jessie says:

              How did you come to that conclusion? It seems to me that you have too much vitriol for these leftists.

  6. josephivo says:

    So typical Filipino. Nothing all these people said is about content, only about style. I just listened to a long debate between political parties and didn’t hear anything political. Politics is the nations decision factory. Decisions you take to solve problems.

    So I would expect a discussion about what are the most pressing problems, or about alternative solutions for pressing problems, or the overlooked side effects for solutions offered by the opposing party. Nothing of that, zero, nada, zilch. Only on how to recruit candidates, make new alliances, where and when they will make the final decisions. Everything except one word on politics, on decisions made in the past, or decisions to be made in the future.

    So who makes the decisions??? Where, how, in favor of who? People grow up.

  7. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    Aquino did not fumble stumble. His PMA underlings fumbled! They were already there when Aquino became a president.

    1. To rescue SAF does not need presidential approval. It is Standard Operating Procedure
    2. The PMA “strategist” (Jesus Mary Mother of God “Strategist” Ewwww) had them withdraw thru an open field where MILF snipers can pick them one by one
    3. MILF were able to rouse their soldiers into combat readiness in an instant! Lightning faster than SAF rescue operation
    4. Whatever happened to a dozen Italian helicopter Benigno bought against Chinese?
    5. The weapons that were surrendered were not the usual weapons use by our American SWAT Team
    6. There were no night vision googles, thermal imaging, communications devices, etcetera. According to tabloid media they had it on … WELL THAT IS ACCORDING TO PMA “Strategists”
    7. In hit-and-run operation our Americans do not carry 30 caliber machine guns. When I saw that 30 caliber machine gun surrendered I chuckled … LOLed … and Rolled laughing
    8. SAF44 were sent with Php100.00 load in their cellphones !
    9. The SAF44 have to walk back miles and miles to waiting transportation not thru helicopters
    10. Etceteras …. etceteras …

    Therefore, It is the training at PMA that is amiss like training in U.P. that turns honest poor students into crooks.

    • Joe America says:

      2. The original withdrawal route had been blocked by rebel forces, and the SAF troops assigned to guard the withdrawal route were never able to set up to provide cover. So the assault team had to change route and went into the corn field. The battlefield loss was actually a testament to the skill of the rebel forces, who had hundreds and hundreds of guns and deployed them to freeze both SAF and AFP rescue forces in place. The whole field of fire was frozen and the AFP generals would not fire artillery to unfreeze it.

    • Zat Cruz says:

      Unless for #1 the president himself ordered not to rescue/reinforce, right? Or are we saying regardless of PNoy’s order to stand down (assuming it is true) that AFP should have gone ahead because it is SOP?

      • Joe America says:

        The President gave no order to stand down. He gave instruction to coordinate with AFP, an instruction that was ignored by Purisima and Napenas. He also confirmed that the generals had made mechanized and artillery available for the rescue, something that was not true. It is nonsense to hold the President responsible for the deceits of others.

        • Zat Cruz says:

          The latest video released showed that Napenas recommended time on target coordination in a meeting with Purisima and PNoy. Did PNoy clearly said no to TOT coordination? Was he silent about it or did not understand it? If he was silent, did that mean approving the recommendation or not? Should we really be naive as to stop with the Palace statement “the president gave instruction to coordinate with AFP and was ignored (by the only 2 key people he meets with for this critical operation)”. 🙂

          As to PNoy ordering (or not) to stand down, I thought that is still being verified or are supporters so quick to say he didn’t order that?

          • Joe America says:

            The testimony in the Senate was that the President was informed that the operation had run into problems. He did not at first understand the size of the enemy force. He made sure that AFP was engaging to assist and was assured both by Purisima and the AFP generals that relief, including mechanized and artillery, was being made available. He continued with his activities in Zamboanga and did not know until the following morning the extent of the killings. President Aquino had no direct role in the execution of the operation. He was engaged in pre-planning, yes.

            You don’t have to take anyone at their word, but when both PNP and AFP officials report that they separately, in testimony under oath, assured President Aquino that relief was being provided, it is hard to hold him responsible for the fact that such relief was not provided. I’m sorry, but there were no witches in Salem (google it), and President Aquino did not drive this operation.

  8. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    Benigno Aquino should have all PMA and U.P. graduates resign!!!
    Replace PMAyers with U.S. Military contractors
    Replace U.P. graduates from other schools
    Appoint CBCP to the Cabinet.
    Have foreigners invest in Philippine press

    • mercedes santos says:

      IMHO, PMA and UP peeps don’t need to resign; heck they are of the Lee Kuan Yew school.
      The CBCP should FOLD !!!!

      • PinoyInEurope says:

        Not all in the UP are Lee Kuan Yew school. Binay is UP, being is more of the He will Kuwan you School. He will rob you, not just once but twice.

        • chit navarro says:

          hahahahhahah… this really made me laugh!!!
          “he will kuwan you school”

          • mercedes santos says:

            No argument there, there’s already a sign up for the “bi(e)t-ting” HACIENDA
            down south . . . in memory of her 44 ninos KUNO . . .bitten twice, HUH ??

  9. Bing Garcia says:

    Thank you Andrew for introducing us to these idiots.

  10. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    AS WHAT I PREDICTED … http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/675139/saf-unit-failed-to-follow-plan SAF44 were to blame … they failed to follow the plan … Why can’t they just say, “SAF44 Committed Suicide” ?

    This is what happened in calculated drib-a-drab press releases.

  11. edgar lores says:

    *******
    1. We should have a collective name for this rabid group of Aquino dethroners.

    2. There is a “confederacy of clowns”; a “coalition of cobras”; or a “conspiracy of fools”. You may add your suggestions.

    3. I like the last one. It’s not original and was applied to the executives responsible for the Enron collapse.

    4. If I were to rank this conspiracy of fools by deadliness, it would be (in reverse order):

    4.4. The indicted, the ousted
    4.3. Marxists-Leninists-Maoists
    4.2. Marcos/Arroyo loyalists/journalists
    4.1. Political bishops

    5. My main criterion for deadliness is scope or reach of influence.

    5.1. The last rank of fools are has-beens.

    5.2. The penultimate rank, while armed and dangerous in the countryside, are adolescent regurgitators of an obsolescent ideology better left in the dustbin of history.

    5.3. The antepenultimate rank, the loyalists and journalists, have wide reach in news and social media and they are propagandists, advisers and consultants, holding the ears of the powerful.

    5.4. I understand the National Transformation Council is an interfaith organization, although predominantly led by active and retired Catholic bishops and archbishops. I think the political bishops are the most dangerous because they are identified with the mother Church… and the Church has not disowned them.

    5.4.1. Neither Francis nor Tagle has made a specific remark castigating these clergy.

    5.4.2. I continue to be bewildered by the loyalty of Filipinos to the Church. Throughout our long history, the Church has sought to keep the Filipino flock ignorant… and she is complicit in the death of Filipino heroes.

    5.4.3. To this day, the Church is regressive in its doctrines, and suppresses social and economic progress in many ways, for example, by opposing reproductive health measures, rejecting full acceptance of the LGBT community, and the consideration of divorce laws.

    5.4.4. To this day, the Church has not confessed the full extent of clerical sexual abuse.

    5.4.3. Filipinos should be aware that the Church is not the sole vehicle for the Christian faith. If you would follow the Christ, you are the soul vehicle… and it takes just two or three of you to form a church and to be gathered in His name.
    *****

    • Mami Kawada Lover says:

      While the non-NTC bishops as well as Tagle have so far not publicly made any statements about the NTC, I’ve heard rumors that they actually disowned the NTC. Perhaps the reason why they are silent is not because they agree with them, but because they want to distance themselves from a group which they know is not supported by the people? Pretty sure if Pope Francis knew about this group, he’d publicly scold them.

  12. louie lantano says:

    Nice analysi, personally I don’t support this kind of movement especially when I came to know who are the proponents of this act. If you consider change, it be be in 2016 election. Not those opportunistic guys who wants to go back in power. Definitely NO to BINAY,COJUANCO,N.GONZALEZ,TATAD, CORONA AND ALL THE BISHOPS behind this. Lahat sila nasusuhulan:-)

  13. Andrew, ikaw na…. thanks for this and contrary to someone’s view, you are not a colonialist

  14. Lito Gallardo says:

    A very commendable write up. Please include the media: the big three on tv and print in particular because people tend to rely and believe what they say, show and print. They precondition peoples’ minds specially the gullible. They pretend to sympathize with the bereaved families, they do it at will all for the sake of ratings! They omitted the real cause of this incident–the SAF forces were simply rookies, inexperienced, ill-trained, low-quality soldiers they call
    “commandos??” who lives were condemned the day they signed up for the job.

    Please write more about this. The president is still our best option, if only for the remainder of his term.

    • Joe America says:

      That’s most interesting, Lito. What is your source for the “greenness” of the SAF force? I wonder about the leadership, too, in the field.

      • Vicara says:

        My understanding was that many of the 44 had been involved in the door-to-door fighting in Zamboanga City during the MNLF splinter group uprising. I don’t know how well-trained they were prior to Mamasapano, but they had certainly been blooded. A couple of journalists covering the fighting noted their professional behavior towards civilians at the time. Young men doing their best, was the general impression. As for leadership… yes, one wonders.

        • Joe America says:

          Thanks. I suspect they are not much different than American battlefield troops. Bring them in, give them intense training, and send them off to the fields of battle. Tough job. We should honor the living as well, when they serve under fire.

  15. AjM says:

    I can appreciate the fact that P’Noy may not be (still questionable IMO) as corrupt as the previous presidents, but I think you, JOE, may be giving him too much credit than what he actually deserve. Should we, as Filipinos, just be satisfied with a president who just happened to be the “lesser evil”? Truth is, we need a real President, a LEADER, one who actually, really, truthfully thinks of his country and his countrymen first and foremost. One whom Filipinos can actually COUNT ON.. Sadly, P’Noy isn’t that guy.

    • He’s arguably the best choice he have at the moment. I really wish I could support Duterte, I find him better than Roxas, but his killing squads reputation makes me give him the thumbs down. Roxas is not corrupt, but as secretary of the DOTC and later the DILG, he has failed to impress. Binay is out of the question for obvious reasons. Miriam might be a good choice but I’m worried about her health. Cayetano is also a good candidate, but I need to see his platform first.

    • Joe America says:

      AjM. I guess the question is, who would you designate as someone with the leadership skills you seek? Pick those on the list of prospects for 2016, perhaps. Or someone new, even.

      Normally when I ask that, people don’t answer because the truth is, they all have glaring faults. The problem with President Aquino is that he lives his in the spotlight of the tabloid media who dwell on failures and ignore successes. What would your ideal President have accomplished instead of President Aquino? Would we have more economic growth or less (DAP, the much criticized executive program, contributed to growth). Would your ideal president not do DAP and allow the economy to falter? Or continue with the corrupt and weak program on the agenda, left behind by Arroyo?

      Would your chosen candidate have orchestrated peace in Mindano? Built 60,000 classrooms? Raised the Philippine debt rating, global rankings, and esteem around the world? Filed ITLOS? Jailed powerful crooks? Stood up to the Catholic Church on RH?

      Or do you just want a president who looks like a young Fernando Poe and swaggers like Pacquiao?

      • Joe America says:

        Why are you sad that your nation is rising in prominence and wealth?

      • AjM says:

        I do indeed have a candidate in mind, but I may be a little bit biased as I’m from Olongapo. He does fit the answer to most of the criteria you have enumerated above though.

        • JC Delos Reyes? He’s a puppet of the bishops and a known far-right candidate. Not a good idea. Richard Gordon is a good idea, if that’s who you’re implying, but I don’t think he wants to run for President anymore.

          • AjM says:

            Yes Mami, i was referring to Richard Gordon. As for his running for presidency, who knows. I hope he does. I just wanted to give Joe a response to his question though.

        • Joe America says:

          Dick Gordon. Business background. Red cross experience. Local dynasty. Emotional. Couldn’t raise money for senate campaign. Made the mistake of joining UNA party and got absolutely no support. His time is past I fear, but I agree he is a decent fellow and could run the government just fine. He is pro-American, or, rather, pro-economy of Olongapo, and he knows how much cash the American troops used to bring to his city, and the jobs they created.

          My son was born in the Gordan hospital in Olongapo and I lived up the coast for a few years. I understand traffic through Subic Town is a nightmare these days.

    • Bert says:

      Ah, right, AjM, we need a real President. And what can be more real President than one who can take over the presidency by virtue of a coup and “people power” that can topple a sitting president who is the “lesser evil” and replace him with a really REAL President who is “more evil”. And so, let’s all go now to EDSA and join the noisy throng there then let’s shout with them “Noynoy Resign, Now na.”.

      Good luck to us all.

  16. Slightly off-topic, but my article is finally ready! I’ve sent an e-mail with the file. I’ve also licensed it under CC-BY 4.0, partially in order to promote Creative Commons here in the Philippines. It’s my first time writing an actual article, so I don’t feel that it’s actually that good. I feel that it’s circular and too long, but I wanted to drive my point. Oh well, I guess it’s good enough for a first try.

  17. rico mambo says:

    Group 1- Hmm, mga walang utang na loob! After rewarding them hundreds of millions of pesos for their pains as human rights victims hahaha!

    Group 2- Rene Saguisag, the loyalist- friend of your bete noir Jejomar Binay. The Cojuangcos? You forgot to mention they are PNoy’s relatives…

    Group 2a- I think they learnt well from the late great Cardinal Sin.

  18. Jose Guevarra says:

    This is what we get from having a terribly under-educated electorate. The vast majority of of our voters cannot even finish high school, let alone attend colleges and universities. It may not be entirely their fault, but the fact remains that Philippine politicians have no qualms with taking advantage of the ignorance of the vast majority come election time.

    This isn’t too different from the way, for example, the Republican Party in the US mocks scientists and environmentalists on issues like stem cell research or climate change. The GOP hugely capitalizes on the naivete of most of the American public when it comes to the sciences. Now I agree there are other aspects of these issues that need to be taken into account as well, such as the economic costs over the short term of measures we are urging businesses to implement to better take care of the environment, for instance. But for the most part, the GOP is simply willing to go by saying that climate change is just a theory that has yet to be proven.

    But I digress. In the absence of truly widespread, accessible, and meaningful public education in the Philippines, how can we have a better informed electorate? How do we minimize the chances that vultures like the political groups such as those mentioned in this article have have their cake and eat it too?

    I honestly think it begins with each of us here. It begins by talking to our neighbors, to our household help, to the poorest members of our villages. Let me ask you, when was the last time you actually tried to share and explain something you know better with someone who is less educated than you are? When did you last try to explain your views on Philippine political issues to your children’s yaya? How can we expect them to make better choices come election time if simply resign ourselves to the “fact” that these people can’t be taught about how to critically think about issues?

    Yes, it might take generations for true political maturity to come to the Filipino electorate. But it certainly won’t happen if we only have intelligent conversations and discussions with other people of sharp minds. We all need to reach out to those among us who are less informed as well. NOW!

    • Jose Guevarra says:

      “How do we minimize the chances that vultures like the political groups such as those mentioned in this article do have have their cake and eat it too?” That should read do NOT have their cake…

      • sonny says:

        JG, i think you want to state the original, not the corrected one.

        • Jose Guevarra says:

          Thanks, Sonny. I was doing this at 4:30 AM here, so I was not with my best English writing skills.

        • Joe America says:

          Man, I had to read that 5 times, put “not” in, took it out. “Minimize” is the operative word. I took “do not” out. Great exercise in grammar construction for 5 in the morning.

          • Jose Guevarra says:

            Sorry Joe. I was looking for some kind of an edit button, but well, there is none.

            • Joe America says:

              I am the edit button. ahaha Just point out needed corrections and I can generally catch them. To get an edit function in Word Press, one must use the customized system that allows plug-ins. That presents issues of security and technological know-how that I am not qualified to address, and too cheap to pay for. 🙂

    • Actually, in previous elections, I did this to our yayas, kasambahays and (drivers at the office) in Davao, Laguna and Metro Manila, same with my relatives and friends in Batangas (ala e… bakin ga natin iboboto yang mga gay ang tao abay maawa naman tayo sa ating sarili at sa bayang ere) hehe

    • sonny says:

      Late in life, I realize language is but an expression of our diversity of logic and perception and personal ethos, no matter the level of our formal education.

      • sonny says:

        Many a time I wish sitting down the members of a voting household and making a group vote and show the mathematical effect of voting as a household, i.e. net effect: solidarity vs cancelling each other out going yea or nay.

      • I use that dialect most of the time, after all, I’m a Batangueña, and proud of it… we are a civilized group, the “balisong” (knives) folk lore notwithstanding… hopefully no folks will carry them during their barikan (drinking) sessions

    • LA702 says:

      @ Jose Guevara

      When the Mamasapano tragedy hit the headlines, the camps of VP Binay, Grace Poe, Bongbong Marcos, the Ejercitos, the Revillas, Enrile and Arroyo did not waste time mobilizing their people to condemn the president on social media for the death of the fallen 44 SAF. At the height of the senate investigation, questions arose whether the president should step down and have Binay take over till 2016.

      VP Binay, even before the Makati corruption charges became public, has been known as a quiet, smooth operator content to stay in the background. But people in the know are aware that Binay as president is like giving your house key to a thief. I believe this and the public should too. So the question is, who should the electorate look to in 2016?

      Mar Roxas I think should be the next president. This guy is qualified, has great pedigree and connections but he needs a serious lesson on personality development. His public demeanor makes him look unattractive. His Gerry Roxas eyeglasses should go. This is the 21st century. Some lessons in pop culture will help. Some lessons in the language of the masa is not going to hurt. We can go on, and on and on, at the end of the day I believe these are his major flaws. Borrowing a page from president Obama’s playbook is not going to hurt either.

      Education of the electorate to vote intelligently would be an impossible undertaking. That will take a lifetime. What needs to be done is require every qualified voter to have a valid government issued ID showing their verifiable valid address to cast a vote. It has to be no ID…no vote policy because the nation will no longer wait for the rest of the electorate to be properly educated while the rest of the country suffers because of their bad choices. It is time to put the era of the Eraps, the Lapids, the Tito Sottos and other clowns behind.

      • Pallacertus says:

        Nononononononononono.

        No.

        Limiting the franchise to a select few — or even to a select many — has been tried before and again, by different democracies at different times, and where concepts of equality before Providence and the law are prevalent, all have been forced to extend it to all people regardless of class or creed, sex or skin color. For better and worse we are all children of the concept of equality, and even as we suffer for it by dubious impressions and bad choices, we must continue to uphold it, while working and hoping for a better-educated electorate, an electorate that puts the best interests of the Philippines at heart as it goes to the polls to elect new leaders.

    • David Murphy says:

      I’ve proposed this idea before but I have no local contacts who could instigate it. I’ll try again in hopes that someone who can put it into action will read and act on it.\
      There are innumerable talented young people in the Philippines who could create short animated videos that illustrate the way corruption works to cheat the poor out of their benefits. For example, show the original amount as a pile of cash, show how money is diverted at various levels until all is left is a 1 kg bag of rice and a bottle of gin. And show how, when distributed by elected officials with integrity and honesty, the money could have been used to build infrastructure, schools, provide medical care, etc. Make these videos available for downloading on social media and recruit an army of young people with their laptops to go to the homes of their friends and show it to the families. The poor may be ignorant but they are not unintelligent. Give them the concepts in language they understand and they can change their behavior. It does not require generations; there is still time between now and the 2016 elections for this information to be disseminated.
      I’m not the one to initiate this project but I hope that someone who reads this has the contacts, or knows of someone who does, and will get it moving.

  19. I so laughed out loud when I tried google translation.. it came out with this “ala e … bakin we voted yang ga gay people yearn maid we ourselves and the city air” when I meant ” oh my, why will we vote for these kind of people, hey.. let’s have pity on ourselves and our country) ,, I did not mean any disrespect of gays…

  20. er, for not of… can’t master the use of these things

  21. Zat Cruz says:

    Although I do like some articles from this site for some of its seemingly objectively pieces, this one here as a whole is an Ad Hominem article. Ad hominem or short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person’s character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

    Focus on the message not the messenger(s). It’s not as if everything PNoy has been doing is right and therefore feedback/opposition is totally baseless.

    • Zat Cruz says:

      And associating all of them to GMA? Lol. Nice way to discredit. We missed an opportunity to get a brilliant person with integrity for a president in Gibo because of the same association PNoy fans used against him. PNoy supporters love to throw this as if GMA is that powerful that even up to now a lot of people are kowtowing to her.

      • Gibo was a great candidate, and if P-Noy and Erap didn’t run he could have had a chance. I just wished he stuck with the NPC rather than jumped ship to Lakas. That cooked his goose. Granted, he had a really good platform, but being linked to a proven corrupt president didn’t help his case.

        I feel upset though he’s disappeared from the public eye. He would have made a good senator or even vice president. He should get over his loss and give politics another try, but this time associating with his cousin or at least stand on his own rather than continue to be linked with Gloria.

        • Joe America says:

          Good assessment. All Wiki says is that he is a director of Banco de Oro, but it doesn’t indicate any work engagement. He is an attorney.

          • Zat Cruz says:

            You should research more about Gibo, Joe. And look at his credentials and his 2010 platform. Positive change could have carried us way way further than where we are now. I didnt really have a problem with PNoy’s anti corruption drive until I realized it wasn’t more than removing people (i.e. political opponents) when he could really have used his immense political capital to overhaul the corrupt system.

            With a hollow anti-corruption program and a non-realized promise on FOI, 2 pillars of his platform (or the only 2 I think), that speaks volumes about his capability.

            PNoy supporters kept throwing about his accomplishments for the economy but come to think of it, each admin had major problems they had to tackle (e.g. energy crisis, unstable economy, monopoly and instability in armed forces among others for FVR), the economy wasn’t a problem when Pnoy took over.

            • Joe America says:

              Oh, I thought Teodoro was one of the soundest candidates for President in 2010. I would have put him ahead of both Gordon and Villar. I disagree with your points about “hollow” anti-corruption and economy, but that’s too big to discuss here. FOI I agree with you on. What President Aquino brought into office was akin to what President Obama brought into office in 2008, confidence and stability in an environment of considerable turmoil. That stability and public backing was the platform from which good deeds could actually get done, like ousting a corrupt SC chief justice and lousy ombudsman, getting good debt ratings, and energizing the economy with good (not corrupt) works.

              • Zat Cruz says:

                I used the word hollow because although I am all for putting into jail corrupt officials when proven guilty, PH history shows you that approach alone doesnt solve the problem. We should jail those who are guilty and then most importantly prevent the next ones to do the same through a transparent system. This one is sustainable. That’s exactly what Gibo did in DND by overhauling the system and processes in place from bidding, to procurement, to distribution, etc.and even with that he didn’t established animosity with the AFP top brass but got even more respect. Gibo called it simply as “removing the temptation from the table” by making it so transparent any corrupt attempt will be easily seen.

                Gibo somehow was able to read PNoy (his cousin) by saying if there is enough evidence (not fabricated) let the due process take care of that but a government run with vengeful intentions will not bring this country forward further. And Pnoy would call it daang matuwid when it is so ironically applied sparingly.

                As to the transparency, no FOI and then here’s the rub, PNoy’s 1.5 Trillion a year presidential pork is unaudited, unprogrammed but take this, still being taken in lump-sum. Even the corrupt GMA didn’t have that kind of setup. 🙂

                The difference between us is that even if I like a person but does something questionable I won’t look the other way.

              • Joe America says:

                We still see things differently. Mr. Teodoro aligned himself with Gloria Arroyo and it was bad judgment. He is in no position to critique others on their judgment. Plus you argue against yourself. You argue for due process, but you argue for more cases. The slow case filings are exactly BECAUSE President Aquino follows due process, which involves DOJ turning cases over to the Ombudsman, and then they go to the courts. Both of the latter are not Executive functions, and they proceed slowly. Estrada’s case is in the courts and still arguing the BAIL matter. The Legislature has recently passed legislation to add two more courts in the Sandiganbayan system, and permit judges to decide with 2 of 3 agreeing rather than 3 of 3, to speed things up. The Legislature is also not under Mr. Aquino. I believe you think he is a dictator. Due process in the Philippine style is slow. He’s got people marching to the jails regularly, a provincial governor just last week.

                As for “PNoy’s 1.5 trillion”, you again view him as controlling money in dictatorial fashion. In fact, the DBM function is more transparent than it has ever been. Visit the web site and prowl around. You want to track the money, go for it. Please cite your source that the P1.5 trillion is unaudited, because I believe that to be untrue. The Commission on Audit is also independent of Executive and watches everything.

                The difference between us is I don’t fit my facts to a preconceived notion that the President is a bad guy, but look at the facts that are readily available, and judge candidly when the President is doing well, and when he is not.

              • Zat Cruz says:

                So there’s a limit to the threaded reply here…Let me post this here in answer to your latest reply.

                Why would Gibo not align himself to the admin party then when he was a cabinet secretary and the party bearer? And most especially he doesn’t have the “Aquino” surname attached to him? Judging by how pinoy masses vote based on popularity, if you’re a candidate you would practically need all the political machinery to offset the popular candidates. He didn’t align with NPC under his uncle mentor Danding Cojuangco as they had a disagreement on the latter’s agenda which gives you an idea he is of independent mind.

                As for auditing PNoy, yes COA is an independent body but if people there are instructed to look first at political opponents (like what happened to the senators with pork anomalies) and most esp. if they look the other way, no audit will be done. Research more on this. A close friend lawyer working under the Ombudsman now had this to share to me. The resources of the office of the Ombudsman were exhausted to investigate opposition senators (enrile, revilla, estrada) but he said if they had more budget and time the admin senators had strong initial evidences against them too. Heard of whether the rest of the senators are being investigated too now on their DAP? And how can you really audit something that is unprogrammed in the first place, Joe? I’d understand the portion of presidential pork which is for calamity but the huge chunk of the 1.5T where does it go?

                I fit my facts on the preconceived notion that PNoy is a bad guy? Really now? I know he is not qualified not just based on his performance as 9 years lawmakers but even as president now given the same facts (e.g. blunders since 2010). I think what’s wrong is that PNoy supporters are trying hard to fit (aligned and with the help of PR team stories) the facts with the preconceived notion an Aquino can do no wrong.

                Also, can you point me to any of your articles when you think he is not doing well or when he could have improved on things and very well should have listened to feedback from his ‘bosses’?

          • I worked as an accountant for his mom,… during my younger days, that is… I did their personal books and prepare her SALN (on weekends at their home’s vast library, weekdays I’m in one of their corporations)… too many sidelines in my youth

            Gibo then, was a very studious young man and he became bar topnotcher, a well deserved feat, I witnessed his hard work….all those law books in his bedroom!

        • Zat Cruz says:

          That’s really because a good majority of PNoy’s gloss over almost everything and don’t care to check candidates even just on 2 major departments: integrity + competence.

          JoeAm (a very educated man I presume) alone researched about Gibo via wiki. 🙂

          • Zat Cruz says:

            And which is another strong evidence here in PH, you won’t get noticed no matter how qualified you are if you don’t have a popular surname.

            • Gordon is a popular surname, too so are Villar, Estrada, but the people’s choice was this President. I myself voted for Brother Eddie Villanueva because I believe in his integrity, but I respect the voice of the people, and I support this President because I want our country to move forward. It is no use dwelling on things that were not meant to be. He, fumbled, he erred, is not emphatic enough, ok ok that proves he is just human like the rest of us. If the accusations against him are with regards to corruption of plunder are proven, so be it but it has to go through due process.

              • sorry again, … against him (please remove are…. ewww) with regards to ….and plunder, not of plunder… my mistakes not of this chinese keyboard…haisst… tried to edit before posting but, but… my eyesight is failing na… I so hate to use eyeglasses – Mary of typos

              • Joe America says:

                Ahahahaha, you are herein designated the Society’s Chief of Typos.

    • andrewlim8 says:

      With all due respect, I advocate shooting messengers. Why? Take Bishop Arguelles’ response when asked about the political histories of his NTC: “Anong masama kung dating Marcos o dating Arroyo? Pilipino rin naman sila.”

      Because it’s all about character. These people are trying to nudge the situation into their desired objectives, with themselves as beneficiaries, and for that their characters are put into the spotlight.

      Another example: How can you take Tatad seriously when he calls media which does not align with his politics as “conscript”? When he presided over a period when all media was closed except for three papers which was taken over by the Romualdezes.

      We should shoot messengers.

      • Zat Cruz says:

        If I apply on you your “shoot the messengers” medicine, I will dismiss everything you write because the very 1st article I read which you wrote is a whole crap of ad hominem.

        • Zat Cruz says:

          …and that’s because I’m not a fan of double standard. Like I realized how much of it is the daang matuwid. 🙂

          • We all have our opinions, let’s agree to disagree in a civil manner. Joe is not forcing you to agree with him, neither do we, the commenters in his blog. We are airing our opinions and discuss them here. I like this site, and I don’t buy what others are saying about him being apologist of the President… we are for supporting our president, any president for that matter, as long as what what we are looking at is an honest effort to lift the country to greater heights. And we are seeing positive results, he is not perfect, but tell me, who is?

            • Zat Cruz says:

              Hold your horses, Mary Grace, before you lecture me further on being civil or what not. 🙂 Read my comments here and tell me where I was otherwise. Your advice on civility and being rightly logical would serve well those who love to shoot messengers (ad hominem ). I have no disagreement about supporting our president/government. I am for supporting our elected president and any president for that matter but I’m also advocating for objectivity when that official seems to be veering away from his mandate. If the president I voted for and/or the person I like commits the same blunders/mistakes he will receive the same feedback from me. Our elected officials are accountable to us and us giving feedback to them should not be made to look like we’re just hating. I’m also NOT insinuating that JoeAm is an apologist of PNoy’s I was just asking if he did write anything that will make me believe he doesn’t think PNoy can do no wrong and therefore would be well-supported by being given a pulse from his “bosses” assuming PNoy does listen.

              • Joe America says:

                @Zat, ” I was just asking if he did write anything that will make me believe he doesn’t think PNoy can do no wrong” Well, rather than consigning Mary the horrid task of going back through my writings to look for criticisms, let me just cut to the chase. I have written critically on two leadership traits and one executive decision.

                Regarding leadership, I believe he is too loyal to people who are in trouble, thus arousing great public ire. Now he may be right to be loyal to them, because he knows better than we do the kind of work they do, and he knows how much of his burden they carry. But it gives the public the impression that he is a trapo putting personal relationships above public interest, which in turn makes him look like a hypocrite. So he needs to cut people off. He right now is carrying Abaya at DOTC when by all visible evidence he is making strange decisions with large amounts of money.

                The other side of that same coin is vindictiveness against people who irritate him, but are not really powerful. Like the PNP Chief who guessed that 10,000 people had died from Yolanda, and was relieved for being honest, and as we can now judge, fairly accurate. They stopped counting at 6,000 or so . . .

                As for decisions, his failure to support FOI from day one is absolutely perplexing . . . nay, wrong . . . as FOI is a part of the infrastructure for straight path governance. If he is worried about secrets being revealed, he can work the language of the bill to protect them. So to me that is a big mistake.

                If you have other instances where you think he has made bad decisions, let me know and I’ll offer a viewpoint on them. But please understand that I come at things differently than most Filipinos. For instance, I LIKE DAP, and think it did good things for the nation. And I think one bad decision, or three, do not make a bad president.

              • “the very 1st article I read which you wrote is a whole crap of ad hominem”…. crap is not very nice, zat

      • I read somewhere that “A writer’s background is considered to be a very important factor when it comes to judging his work. A book written on a particular subject in history will be perceived differently keeping in view the background of the author. Therefore, it is important to understand that a writer’s traits and circumstances have a pivotal role to play in his feelings, thinking and the construction of his arguments.
        To put it simply, the considerations regarding the use of ad hominem can explain certain arguments and the motives behind them better.”

        From this, I can understand where you’re coming from when you say “We should shoot messengers.”

        • Zat Cruz says:

          When I was about to read the article I was expecting at least the lesser evil of the author attacking the messengers first but at the same time argue against their points and show us why we should not accept what this group is proposing. But the latter is sorely missing. It’s just a whole ad hominem article. Probably it’s just me but help me find anywhere in this article tackling head on/point-by-point the case NTC is bringing forth.

          • …help me find anywhere in this article tackling head on/point-by-point the case NTC is bringing forth…

            Maybe none, as the case NTC is bringing forth is a non-issue to us because it is not worth tackling head on point by point, explained and analyzed already here in the previous topics of the blog and in others (raissa robles). The topic is “A primer on the organizers of the Aquino resign movement”. The author and us, the commenters, have already concluded that what they are advocating is ridiculous, impractical, unconstitutional and just a waste of time to deal with, but they are there making a spectacle of themselves and exposing their motives, so can you blame us if we indulge in “ad hominem” ? This is after all just a continuation of our previous discussions on the topic of resignation, or a council this and council that in whatever name and composition – over and done with. This group of commenters were at it for sometime now, since day one. We were just given a primer, or a summary if you will, of the organizers of that movement so we can further understand why they are making such noises.

    • edgar lores says:

      *******
      Zat,

      Just on ad hominem arguments, these are not necessarily fallacious.

      An attack on a person’s character is valid when that person is unreasonable either in his words or his actions.

      The entities — both people and organizations — that have been written up here are being criticized for their calls for President Aquino into resigning.

      Now let me ask you the following questions:

      1. Are you in favor of the President resigning specifically due to the Mamasapano incident?
      2. Why?
      3. What do you think are the reasons for these entities to ask for the President’s resignation?
      4. Do you agree with these reasons?
      5. What do you thing are the motivations of these entities in asking for the President’s resignation?
      6. Do you think these motivations are acceptable?

      Before you cast the accusation of ad hominem arguments, you must answer these questions to your satisfaction… and ours.

      If you answer no just to the first question, then you negate your accusation.

      If you answer yes, let us hear your reasons. I am sure the author of this post would gladly debate you on your reasons.

      You say focus on the message and not the messengers. What exactly is your message?

      You have the floor.
      *****

      • edgar lores says:

        *******
        Zat,

        In addition to questions 1 and 2, you will have to justify Binay’s ascendance to the Palace. That is, that Binay must serve the rest of President Aquino’s term… and why that will be better for the country.
        *****

      • Zat Cruz says:

        Edgar – thanks for sharing your thoughts/questions and numbering them. I have the floor eh? 🙂

        First off I didn’t say all ad hominems are fallacious although we know in theory and practice that it may be convenient for most to resort to it but it’s not the best way to argue for any cause. You said “if the person is unreasonable in his actions and his words” so therefore you can argue against their current action and the words they use as they advocate for something but not to paint a bad light against their character based on previous associations, etc and which exactly what the author did. It’s just like what Binay did during the debate vs. Bayani in 2010. Binay said to Bayani “you’re a liar” instead of focusing on the issues (this one specifically is called “Poisoning the well”).

        And since you seemed to have picked up the same vibe from the author, it’s very clear you haven’t paid attention to the message from these groups on what they are advocating based on your questions about Binay because you dismissed the messengers right away. There are people in these groups (or within NTC) who also don’t want Binay to be part of the transition gov’t although I understand they haven’t finalized any recommendation. I’ll leave it to you to research on this more rather than I spoonfeed it because my message is this: Listen to what they’re saying/proposing first and don’t dismiss it outright just because you don’t like some of them. 🙂

        As for your questions, let me try to answer them as briefly here as I can and in the same order:
        1. On resignation: In truth, I lean more for the president to STEP UP rather than step down. If because there are people calling for him to resign (which under democracy by the way they have every right to do so) this keeps him on his toes and therefore start shaping up, I’d all the more encourage these people to “rock the boat” so we have a president who will stop “noynoying” (for lack of better term 🙂 ), circumvent laws, complicate situations, etc.

        And if indeed I would become in favor of him stepping down, we all know Mamasapano is not the only blunder PNoy has committed. Supporters make it look like PNoy’s incompetence has only been manifested in this single isolated incident. Many know better, Edgar. It doesn’t take a genius you know if one really cares about this country and not just beholden to landlords and oligarchs.

        2. Why? You ought to know where PNoy has not done well because as an elected official he should be monitored and assessed for performance. I won’t list down his blunders/mistakes for you. If you’re the type who don’t monitor performance simply because you like the person, I’ll leave it at that and to speak for yourself.

        3. Again, this question is an evidence against you not listening to their message. If you do really care about this country and want to actively participate in nation-building read up on it yourself, keep yourself abreast not just on this instance but moving forward. I won’t spoonfeed it to you just because just like the author you may have “shot the messengers” and haven’t checked if the message(s) have some value in them. I tell you there is.

        4. The specific reasons they have provided we have to carefully listen to and assess as we don’t want some sectors to be calling for resignation but they have hidden selfish agenda themselves too. But overall and generally if trust is no longer there for an elected official and there are clear violations, our system should be able to support us replacing that official with someone trustworthy and competent. If we are disposed to this, it will keep all our officials to do their best because at any time they fail to live up to their mandate, they can be easily replaced. Elected officials being on their toes and doing their best is best for a country like ours which is always underserved.

        5. As for questions on their motivations, I don’t want to pretend I can read people’s minds and know exactly the motivations of each one of them. Again this question stems from the fact that you have stopped at the messenger and didn’t care to see if there’s value in the message being put across. Of course as we listen to the opposition, we have to be continually critical of everything they say. My takeaway from all of it and to simply put it is they’re advocating to create a body or transition group whose members will be selected from the lot which people trust. The process can be in many forms e.g. a quick plebiscite, etc.

        Lastly, are you actually assigning to me the burden to justify Binay’s ascendancy to the palace?Why? 🙂 Is it up to me in the first place? What does our constitution say? This is actually moot and academic if we agree with the NTC’s recommendation to replace all of them including Binay.

        And if I answer no to your first question I negate my “accusation”? LOL. This statement doesn’t make sense but anyway, I’m resting my case.

        • IMO, aside from what my own assessment of their motivation, what they are advocating is a national council which for me is quite unacceptable given that we have a working, democratic government, it is quite destabilizing and what’s more, election time is just around the corner, so why not just wait for it…. these groups are so impatient as if we are on the verge of a great catastrophe…pardon the “ad hominem”…. my ipinion only

          • Zat Cruz says:

            I am with you there that we have to weigh carefully the pros and cons between waiting it out or making a change now. My quick assessment though is that regardless of whether their advocacy has merits, our citizens have already what you may call “protest-fatigue” (if there is such a term) and it will take massive actions before our masses can be involved in thinking through what’s right for this country. Between that happening and the amount of time before the next elections I think the general sentiment is that even if many are already frustrated they will just wait it out and weather the current “storm”.

            As to this whole thing or exercise where citizens/groups are calling for the president to step down, my opinion is that let democracy work. Let us go through this exercise as eventhough seemingly inconvenient/topsy turvy, this gets more and more of our people to become aware, vigilant and participative in the affairs of the country.

        • edgar lores says:

          *******
          Zat,

          I won’t reply to each of your points. I will let the author of the post do that if he thinks it is worth it.

          I will just mainly point out fallacies in your comments.

          1. “You said ‘if the person is unreasonable in his actions and his words’ so therefore you can argue against their current action and the words they use as they advocate for something but not to paint a bad light against their character based on previous associations, etc and which exactly what the author did.”

          1.1. You cannot deduce from I said that it is (a) right to “argue against their current action and the words they use as they advocate for something; and (b) that it is wrong to “paint a bad light against their character based on previous associations.”

          1.2. I said nothing about “current action” or “previous associations”.

          1.3. Indeed I would support the author in his approach because he is looking at the totality — past and present — of the entities he is criticizing.

          1.4. And may I say that you also do this — and rightly so — in criticizing the past and present of President Aquino.

          2. You are casting ad hominems in my direction. Funny that.

          2.1. “And since you seemed to have picked up the same vibe from the author, it’s very clear you haven’t paid attention to the message from these groups on what they are advocating based on your questions about Binay because you dismissed the messengers right away.”

          2.1.1. This blogsite is a continuum. This post is a continuation of previous posts. We have not dismissed the messengers “right away”. Why don’t you read the last 20 or so posts as a start? For the Mamasapano coverage, start with the one published on January 28 this year entitled “BBL, MILF, BIFF, PNP, AFP, CIA AND ISIS.”

          2.2.2. How do you know that I haven’t examined the message of these messengers and dismissed both message and messengers? As for your reasoning that I have not paid attention due to my questions about Binay, refer to point 3 below.

          2.2. “3. Again, this question is an evidence against you not listening to their message.”

          2.2.1. Again, also, how do you know that I haven’t listened and rejected their message?

          2.2.2. In the give and take of a discussion, it is but fitting and proper — and polite — to enumerate points. Everything must be put in context. You must marshal the arguments of these messengers in your own words to show that you understand their message and so that you can communicate them to the readers. Assume that they do not know, and add your own arguments if you have any.

          2.2.3. You say you are not a mind reader… and yet you pretend to read mine.

          3. My question on Binay is relevant because Binay is the natural successor to the presidency if President Aquino resigns. This is dictated by the Constitution.

          3.1. What these messengers are advocating is an extra-constitutional set-up.

          3.2. Do you agree with this extreme measure?

          3.3. You say this issue is “actually moot and academic if we agree”. Who is “we”?

          3.4. And what is the mechanism and procedure for effecting this change?
          *****

          • Zat Cruz says:

            And I won’t answer each of your points too because I can see this is just going to get dragged on. We will miss the forest for the trees. I wasn’t reading your mind but was just replying based on the context and questions you raised about Binay to which one key implication is that supporters seem to rather espouse that we (citizens) look the other way for mistakes happening NOW (PNoy blunders) because we are worried for something that has NOT happened yet (insinuations on Binay abuses in the future). My view is that if the elected person (regardless of whether I like him or not or I voted for him or not) is accountable for something, let’s call a spade a spade and do the needful. It happened with Erap; GMA is in jail and being prosecuted right now; PNoy is being questioned and weighed right now; It can happen to Binay or whoever will be succeeding in 2016 (or before that); it should happen for whoever will be elected in the future for every act that has major consequences and makes them answerable to the people. The picture I’d like people to see is this – let’s go through the process each time regardless of who assumes the role of a president or an elected official in general. The messengers bringing forth their advocacies (message) is part of this process.

            I don’t want to contribute to complicating this discourse further. My message is really simple and clear and that is, this whole primer of a thing is an ad hominem based on the premises provided and on my end I don’t agree with the article (message) but I’m not shooting the messenger. On the other hand, if you embrace this and take it as if it’s bible truth/spot on, go ahead, it’s your right. 🙂

            • edgar lores says:

              *******
              Zat,

              1. What process are you talking about?

              1.1. The criticism of the President?
              1.2. The resignation of the President to be replaced by a council?

              2. The first process is in place. It is democratic and constitutional. No ifs and buts about it.

              3. The first part (resignation) of the second process is possible and constitutional, but the second part (council) is neither constitutional nor in place.

              4. Your criticism of the author is unwarranted.

              4.1. In the first place, you have an incorrect grasp of ad hominem.

              4.2. In the second place, you are guilty of the crime that you would condemn another for.

              4.3. And in the third place, whether I agree with the author or not is neither here nor there. You don’t have to be trivial and patronizing (another ad hominem), and say it is my right. That goes without saying. My points and questions to you were ultimately about methodology, both of the author and of the people he criticized.
              *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                Haha, so now you are accusing me of the very thing I don’t agree with — criticizing the author when clearly I’ve been consistent in saying I don’t agree with the article but you really want to classify my doing so and view it by saying I am criticizing the author (person). I’ve been advocating for not shooting the messenger and focus on the message and assess the latter. I’ll leave it at that. It is obvious you want to drag me into debating about other things but I’m resting my case here. If you still didn’t get my message despite, I’m not at all worried. 🙂

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                You were criticizing the author’s methodology.

                Well, yes, I want you to clarify your points. That, after all, is why we are here.

                But if you want to cut and run…
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                “I want to cut and run” eh…? Hahaha,trying to employ the very tactics on me which I wanna slay? I choose my battles and this one’s not worth it. 😉

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Why not? You were forthright enough to voice an opinion.
                *****

  22. stitch says:

    Reblogged this on bleary and commented:
    Oh, and for those wondering who are those now calling for “Justice for the 44”, here they are.

  23. jameboy says:

    Can PNoy be fired or dismissed? It’s possible. The real question is when can he be ousted or fired?

    Let’s face it, time is running out and the prospect of electing a new president next year make the ouster call less appealing.

    Look at the horizon and honestly figure out what’s in there that will really get PNoy and put him in the stand. Do we have a Chavit Singson-figure out there like what happened to Erap? Do we have a Garci and his tapes that would considerably weaken his watch like what Gloria Arroyo suffered?

    The Ninoy-like (death) issue in the case of the 44 PNP-SAF can be exploited and be made the flashpoint against the administration. Questions and doubts on that case have not been addressed concretely as we speak, so people can rally behind it but that’s all. Can it be made as an explosive national controversy, it can but the problem, again, is time or timing.

    Very clear, what we have out there are just noises meant to annoy but not really to oust a sitting president.

  24. Zat Cruz says:

    Any thoughts about this manifesto? I’m hoping we are not glossing over many things and dismiss things/people outright. Anyhow not really here to debate but looking at different perspectives as I provide mine.

    http://www.manilatimes.net/a-personal-manifesto/167028/

    • Joe America says:

      Tadad has zero credibility. He is the bottom of the journalism barrel and citing him risks damaging your own credibility mightily.

      • Zat Cruz says:

        I was asking your thoughts on his manifesto why is this about me now? 🙂 Do we really like to shoot the bearer of messages in this site?

        • Joe America says:

          Only to the extent that if I quoted Binay as a model of straight governance, my credibility should be rightfully questioned.

          • Zat Cruz says:

            Joe – hypothetically, if you happen to be by any chance in the same boat and create a personal manifesto in defense of yourself against people questioning your credibility, I will objectively present that to the group as well for them to look at. It doesn’t necessarily mean I side with you right away, it only means I’m willing to look/listen at both sides and weigh things from there.

            That’s really just the principle behind me criticizing the methodology (not his person) of Andrew with this article. Listen to both sides; debate on the issues/points being put forth rather than resorting lowly to mudslinging/ad hominems.

      • LA702 says:

        @ Joe America

        These two words “zero credibility” accurately describes Kit Tatad. Like a persons citizenship, a persons character follows him wherever he goes. Kit Tatad throughout his political career have adroitly managed to navigate both aisles of the political landscape. Like a chameleon, it was second nature for him to change colors he sees fit as he accurately described in his own manifesto.

        Kit Tatad is selling an “idea”, a “product” and therefore you and I have all the right to examine that product and the person or entity selling it. Like purchasing “life insurance” smart clients would not mortgage their life and life savings to people of questionable character and the entity that he represents.

        Kit Tatad in this manifesto, have exposed himself as a persona non grata. By his conscious omission and without acknowledgement of his true benefactor, the late Rep.Jose Alberto the kingpin of Catanduanes who offered Kit Tatads services to Ferdinand Marcos as exchange of political favors. Kit Tatad, the entity that he represents and the product that he is presenting to the Filipino people are wrong, self serving and reflects the true character of Kit Tatad.

    • edgar lores says:

      *******
      Zat,

      Like you, Tatad does not spell out the mechanism for the transfer of power.

      The entire column is a litany of palusots.

      This is a waste of time.
      ****

      • Zat Cruz says:

        You seem to be an educated man, Edgar but I don’t know if you just failed to notice that’s not the topic for his article? If the article was about the mechanism for the transfer of power and he keeps talking about his manifesto, then I would have agreed with you. 🙂

        • edgar lores says:

          *******
          Zat,

          Start with another ad hominem. Typical.

          So why did you bring in the cat?

          The thread of our discussion has been your support of the Aquino critics and their push for a national council.

          Tatad’s first paragraph speaks of the council, and naturally I expected you were citing it to support the council’s shenanigans.

          So back to my question: What is the mechanism for the transfer of power?
          *******

          • I agree with andrew lim in his response to that manifesto. Andrew, I took the liberty of copying this here, I hope you don’t mind.

            andrew lim says:
            March 4, 2015 at 2:44 pm

            Since Mr. Tatad wrote a personal manifesto, I hope Manila Times will not classify my post as ad hominem since it critiques what he wrote and omitted.

            Tatad claims that he was for Cory during the snap elections, but during the EDSA revolution itself, Tatad went on TV along with other Marcos loyalists (either channel 4 or 9) like Ronnie Nathanielz to support the Marcos regime (as rebels had cut off Malacanang). There is footage of that in the archives.

            Tatad has never stood against corruption of the Marcoses even as the PCGG with the help of the US, Switzerland and international banks had recovered $4B, with more to recover. He has never denounced the Marcoses for corruption.

            Tatad even supported Erap Estrada, standing in the way of opening evidence at the latter’s impeachment trial.

            Tatad claims that he has no need for bodyguards since he has no enemies. But the people remember, and they have refrained from voting him in again in government.

            • “Tatad even supported Erap Estrada, standing in the way of opening evidence at the latter’s impeachment trial.”

              Correct… I saw this on TV, Tatad was one of the 11 senators who so enraged the people that they called People Power again right after Chief Justice Davide announced “the nays have it” during the Senate trial for the impeached Estrada… na-onse ang bayan, part 1… the part 2 came this year, with 11 super legalistic SC justices voting for Estrada to remain Mayor of Manila and to run again for whatever public office he decide on by virtue of GMA’s restoration of his civil rights in her defective wording of the ill advised presidential pardon…

              • Zat Cruz says:

                This is the kind of thoughts I was waiting for as I also look into the points of these NTC members along with their backgrounds.

                I just can’t believe that in the process of asking for thoughts I’m being attacked personally by some of our friends here. 🙂

            • edgar lores says:

              *******
              Thanks, Mary. Didn’t realize Andrew threw another ad hominem.
              *****

          • Zat Cruz says:

            Hahaha…does my ad hominem lead me to just dismissing you altogether along with whatever valuable perspectives you bring with you? Again you want to drag me into debating for another premise/topic altogether. Typical of you too. 😉

            • Zat Cruz says:

              I posted the personal manifesto by Tatad here because it is also in the same context of the ad hominem primer by Andrew which delves into personalities instead of issues at hand. Andrew’s article didn’t challenge or debate on the merits of anything and nada on anything about the “mechanics of the transfer of power” (that you keep insisting I talk about).

              Are we even clear on the starting premises here?

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Zat,

                That’s because we have dismissed these lunatics beforehand.

                As I said this blog is a continuum.

                One cannot just jump in without knowing the history of the blog and the commenters here. Understand I am not saying this is a circlejerk. If you go through other posts you will see different and contrasting opinions rendered — but always rendered with respect. Well, perhaps, not always.

                Tatad to me — and to most others here — is mud. We have made that conclusion a long time ago. And for you to insert a link to his column is naivete of a high order.
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                “We have DISMISSED these LUNATICS beforehand.” Boom! I guess that explains why the approach and tone on debating points here always come with personal digs and obviously esp. from you. 🙂

                My hope is that there will be more people who would lean more or side with principles rather than people. Talk about issues not people. In PH, things seem to always be “manok ko, manok mo” kind of mentality. So even if one’s “manok” did something questionable in this realm, it becomes irrelevant.

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Zat,

                People who propose a scheme but do not lay the full groundwork and the full procedure for that scheme are lunatics.
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                “People who propose a scheme but do not lay the full groundwork and the full procedure for that scheme are lunatics.”

                Hmmm, funny that this reminds me of something. Did you know PNoy’s platform when he ran in 2010? Was there a platform or was it clearly laid out by him with full procedure or perhaps the slogans were enough groundwork?

              • edgar lores says:

                Deflection.

              • Zat Cruz says:

                Really? Hahaha, I thought that’s what you’ve been doing with some of the questions I have for you. 🙂

              • Zat Cruz says:

                Ad hominems and double standard — monsters that many people seemed to have come to love nowadays.

            • edgar lores says:

              *******
              Zat,

              Seriously, if you want any of us to embrace your view about the council and your support for it, then you must lay out the procedures and mechanisms of the this extra-constitutional scheme.

              You enter this forum firing pistols with blank bullets. I engage you in discussion but you come up with nothing… except not-so-subtle ad hominems.
              *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                Edgar,

                Before being personal with your reactions to comments here try to remember this forum is not just for you and people who are fully aligned with your views. (Correct me if I’m wrong though on this JoeAm. :)) You seem to forget such that you jump the gun and put words in other people’s mouth.

                I’m saying this for the nth time, my message here is about the methodology employed by Andrew in challenging whatever viewpoints NTC has without actually talking about those points. Read my very first comment about this article.

                What made you assume or conclude right away I joined the discussions here because I necessarily want people to embrace my view about the council? What I want people to embrace is the view that there’s a high road to disagreeing and not resort to this kind of personal attacks. Same stand that I have based on my observation how our 2010 presidential and VP debates panned out (e.g. Binay discrediting Bayani outright by saying the latter is a liar, PNoy berating the moderator of the debate by asking why PNoy was the first one presented with the question, etc.).

                Understand first what’s being advocated before you start accusing people here of things.
                And by the way, you keep throwing in the context of NTC proposal being extraconstitutional. Have you been consistent with your stand that everything should follow what’s in the constitution? If so, what are your thoughts on EDSA 1, EDSA 2, the unconstitutional PDAF and DAF and even BBL itself which legal experts say has unconstitutional grounds too?

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Zat,

                Your understanding of ad hominems is incorrect.
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                Hahaha…Ok then, enlighten me/us what is ad hominem and if there’s a right or wrong way to use it and that of Andrew’s is the right one. 🙂

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Zat,

                My first response to you stated that your understanding of ad hominems was fallacious. It also gave the reason why.

                Go back and read it.
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                And you highly think your reason is correct for saying my understanding of this fallacy is wrong and it’s not debatable? 🙂

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Zat,

                No need to ask.
                *****

              • Zat Cruz says:

                No matter what you say, Edgar, this whole article is an epitome of argumentum ad hominem/personem. Period.

              • I will post again my response to your request to “help me find anywhere in this article tackling head on/point-by-point the case NTC is bringing forth”…as a conclusion, just to reiterate how we commenters take Andrew Lim’s article entitled “A primer on the organizers of the Aquino resign movement” and relate it to Tatad’s personal manifesto wherein he did not discuss the mechanics of the council he and his group is proposing. My point is Andrew stuck to his topic, which is to enumerate the people involved while Tatad stuck to his personal defense to people criticizing his moves.

                Maybe none, as the case NTC is bringing forth is a non-issue to us because it is not worth tackling head on point by point, explained and analyzed already here in the previous topics of the blog and in others (raissa robles). The topic is “A primer on the organizers of the Aquino resign movement”. The author and us, the commenters, have already concluded that what they are advocating is ridiculous, impractical, unconstitutional and just a waste of time to deal with, but they are there making a spectacle of themselves and exposing their motives, so can you blame us if we indulge in “ad hominem” ? This is after all just a continuation of our previous discussions on the topic of resignation, or a council this and a council that in whatever name and composition – over and done with. This group of commenters were at it for sometime now, since day one. We were just given a primer, or a summary if you will, of the organizers of that movement so we can further understand why they are making such noises.

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