Listening for dummies

listening hillary johnson typepad dot com

[Photo credit: Hillary Johnson, typepad.com]

Now that I’m famous, I figure I can shift gears. Instead of writing to learn, I can write to preach, to instruct, to lecture, to lord it over all the people who thought they were coming here for wisdom, and are instead stuck back in the school room.

I’ve gotten many, many new subscribers. It’s quite amazing, actually. Now President Aquino got me a lot of them, and I do think he is a generous man for doing that. He didn’t charge me a centavo. I can’t even vote for him or his protege. And if he thinks LP is getting a campaign donation, he doesn’t know my wife.

But the big enrollments came after the front page splash in the Inquirer. Well, it was more a blurb than a splash, but around these parts, people and politicians define their own realities, and, for me, it was a splash. I do thank the Inquirer for that, and I now understand why McDonald’s does ads there. Hamburgers and blogs sell well on the front page of my favorite tabloid newspaper.

I’m sure most people signed up to follow the blog to get the political commentary and JoeAm’s right-thinking, non-aligned, objective analyses and plugs for Mar Roxas. They are probably not quite ready for the real JoeAm, the guy who does sermons and book reports and allows his cousin Angry Maude to blast her rage at people other than him.

angry maude (sm)

Angry Maude

Here’s Angry Maude at her best, just to help you understand that JoeAm is actually not a normal man for allowing a certified wild woman member of his clan access to his famous blog: “Angry Maude does libel”

You won’t catch Maude’s quotes on the list of famous literary memorabilia, but you can always catch her drift, as in this in this comment responsive to the “anti” blog site Get Real Post:

“But enough of this. I’m a gonna go out and get real stinkin’ drunk. Ease off a little steam. Blow some gas if you catch my drift. My therapist said that’s not really the best way to deal with anger, but she concedes it is better than ripping someone’s eyeballs out with a fork.”

But I digress.

Another thing you will learn about JoeAm is that he does not belong to any organizations. Not a one. No church, no civic organization like Rotary Club, certainly not Boy Scouts, no political movement or party, no advocacy group, no club, alumni or otherwise. The last organization he belonged to was the company that fired him into early retirement because the new French owners found him redundant, whereas the previous Japanese owners only found him confounding.

The background to this has something to do with Joe’s claustrophobia, a condition imposed upon him when, in the guise of training, the US Army made him crawl 30 yards through a tunnel of barrels buried 5 feet underground with a sweaty fat guy in front and a rather unhinged fellow trooper behind. The fat guy got stuck, the unhinged fellow went bonkers, and Joe carries that little bout of freak-out, in-the-throat panic, around with him even today, almost half a century later. It stands as a sharp reminder that it is best to control your own destiny.

And it illustrates why JoeAm fled the Army at the first opportunity to bail. Then he grew his hair long, refused to shine his shoes, and went out to protest the War (Viet Nam).

Plus, Joe could never figure out why churches, as organizations, seemed not to walk in what he understood the steps of Jesus to be. So Joe, who is me in a different grammatical person, finds spirituality alone and moral guidance by thinking about things.

Interestingly enough, I admire people who are steeped in their faith, and the discipline that requires, and who display a sacrifice of time and self that I am unable to get to. I concede, I’m selfish. And yet, it is not for me to decide which is the real faith, and I think there is a considerable amount of selfishness amongst those who would impose their faith upon others, arguing in deadly fashion that theirs is the “higher” faith. To me, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think your faith is the best, obviously it is not, for it sows division rather than heals.

But I’m still digressing.

Where were we?

Oh, yes. About listening.

  • If you are speaking, you aren’t listening.
  • If your mind is made up, and you are defending your position or ego, you aren’t listening.
  • If you are angry at someone, you aren’t listening.

Here’s when you are listening:

  • When you aren’t thinking “what an idiot”.
  • When you want to know how someone arrived at their opinion.
  • When you want to know the facts for yourself, and are willing to put in the effort to look and verify or reject them.
  • When you smile because you learned something new or caught the joke.

And . . . the final test . . . when you have the discipline to wade through a blog such as this, attending to its diversions, nonsense and meanderings, and arrive at the end, still awake and curious . . .

You are listening.

Congratulations.

To receive your diploma, send P500 to Joe in care of the Department of Community Relations, Biliran Province, so the Governor can be assured of his 40% cut. That’s the way we do things hereabouts . . .

You also won’t get your diploma for a few years because we have them printed by a Dutch company which submitted the highest bid, but got the contract anyway. They also get 40%. They are sometimes hard to find though. I think they may be related to the Limlingans or Chongs or the ghosts of Makati, not sure which.

 

Comments
350 Responses to “Listening for dummies”
  1. chit navarro says:

    A very fast learner in this side of town –
    40% cut for the LGU
    contract given to the highest bidder because of the foreign-sounding name
    delay in the release of the diploma because printing is done overseas (?) because of the bid winner that is a Dutch company…
    BUT very hard to find as maybe related to Limlingan or Baloloy…
    ************************************
    but what are you trying to tell us?
    am listening… or so I think!

    maybe better – am reading and trying to understand!

    • Joe America says:

      The close is just a little poke at the way things work “normally” in the Philippines: local politics, agencies of government (LTO’s use of a Dutch company for contract work), and power bosses (Binay). No special meanings. You can stop listening at “congratulations” if it is confusing.

    • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

      AHA! HA! HA! HA! Thank you, Lance. Those are the essentials of GOSSIP that is currently now used by University of the Philippines Jouranlism Graduates that masquerade as Journalists, Publishers and Columnists.

      Bet ya 100% 99% of them will never get to work in American, European and all 1stWorld countries newspapers except tabloids.

      • The first sentence looks a lot like just rhetoric, at first glance. But with the 2nd sentence, the whole thing’s actually about dialogue–the 2nd part is crucial, and Joe’s point.

        • caliphman says:

          28 minutes is a bit too long for my attention span, but I trust this Vietnam era training film did not promote waterboarding or interrogating prisoners in front of an open helicopter door at high altitude? Those techniques give new meaning to that second sentence…hehehe.

  2. Bert says:

    Now that you are famous, Joe, be assured that the Society denizens, new and old alike, can now take serious thought that your very persistent endorsement of the LP standard bearer Mar Roxas is really a non-aligned stand on your part and thus might be swayed to think deeper and analyse farther what really is it that made you take that very neutral position. I for one, is already inclined to change my partisan stand and be neutral myself in favor of Mar since I cannot stomach going against the grain of an old friend blogger now getting that famous.

    • hep hep, hep hooray! yess!

    • Joe America says:

      Just as I was starting to slide toward Poe . . . ahahaha

    • non-aligned stand, Roxas doesn’t know us from Adam, we are for the Straight Path continuation, an uphill climb, we agree knowing the survey numbers are still unkind to Mar.

      Mahar Kelley Mangahas – that was an intriguing write up of Tiglao, insinuating that Fernando Kelley Poe’s cousin (was it cousin?) is manipulating the questions being asked of the respondents in the SWS Surveys, hence the inflated result favoring Grace Poe. Pulse Asia’s numbers also favor Poe, too so how does Tiglao reconcile that? If ever Tiglao is correct, are the Filipinos being manipulated by both SWS and Pulse Asia?

      • Although the slant of Tiglao is pro-Binay, that means Mar is also affected.

        Enrile, Arroyo, Estrada, Marcos?, Danding Cojuangco (NPC), Roberto Ongpin, Ramon Ang (SM), Andrew Tan (Mega World) and most of the Chinese businessmen friends of Excudero – all for Poe ??????

        Truly an uphill climb for Mar, God help the Philippines.

  3. edgar lores says:

    *******
    1. Oh, lordy, lordy, lordy.

    2. Fame has gone to JoeAm’s head.

    3. My math tells me that if 40% goes to the Governor and another 40% goes to the Dutch company, then JoeAm gets 20%. Twenty percent of P500 is a measly P100.

    4. Why measly? Well, consider Binay’s Garage. Out of the estimated P2.2B cost, the Binay family allegedly pocketed at the very least P1.2B. That’s 54.54%.

    5. Clearly, the Binay talent has not rubbed off on poor JoeAm. Assuming someone wants to learn how to listen every day and get a Dutch Diploma, JoeAm will realize P100 a day. It will take him 12M years to accumulate what the Binays got in 4 years (2007 – 2011). That’s right: 12,000,000 years. Or 120,000 centuries. Or 12,000 millenia.

    6. And if JoeAm thinks he is going to get that amount clear, boy has he got another thing coming. He does not know his missus.
    *****

    • Bert says:

      Edgar, very good analysis, but I tend to disagree on your no. 6. After all, Joe’s missus is not named Elenita.

    • NHerrera says:

      My old but trusty K&E confirms the numbers.

      Joe has, I believe, the patience of the biblical Job. But assuming he is near immortal, he will not get the sum Binay got so quickly in just 4 years. The earth will be extinct by then. Further you have to double the time estimate; the missus will get one-half of the cash flow. BTW, is that in cash or check?

      • Joe America says:

        Oh, cash, for sure. No receipt, either. Ghost transaction as we say in our line of work.

      • edgar lores says:

        *******
        The earth will become extinct when the sun dies. That’s an intriguing thought.

        The sun is projected to begin to die in 5 billion years, but it will become so hot before then that life will become extinct on earth in ~3 billion years.

        Before, those numbers were beyond imagination. But the peso has inflated so much that our national budget is in terms of trillions of pesos. P3T for 2016.

        Can you imagine that? I can’t. My mind only works in tens of thousands at most.

        I reckon mankind has a million years to seed the Solar System, a billion years to seed the Milky Way, and another 2 billion to conquer the Universe.

        Since stellar distances are enormous — the nearest star being ~4.22 light- years away and the nearest habitable star ~12 light-years away — and new physics will have to be discovered to make interstellar space travel a reality, I further reckon that psi (psychic) energy may be an alternative solution. In a word, teleportation.

        We will develop the ability to separate our consciousness from our bodies and go astral travelling.

        After all, we are stardust.

        ***

        P.S. Some people are just plain dust.
        *****

        • NHerrera says:

          edgar,

          I agree with the physics of sun and earth e.g. time estimate, and perhaps by extension becoming part of the black hole in the end.

          But the way the human specie is going about its way — meaning the human sociology traveling by snail mail while greed and climate change is galloping at digital speed — the human specie, including our friend our near-immortal friend JoeAm may go extinct before we get swallowed up in the black hole.

          So let’s hurry up with space exploration and technology to discover the millions of earth-like planets there. Knowing from Einstein that if we travel at near the speed of light time slows down, we can still make.

          Here’s the plan:

          – All you Binays and supporters, go to planet X120-A
          – All you Marcoses and supporters, go to planet X120-B
          – All you Dutertes and supporters, go to planet X120-C
          .
          .
          .
          – All you JoeAm and friends, go to planet Z000-X

          No quarreling now. You have your own planets. But when you do quarrel, we will repeat the cycle.

          Hahaha.

          • i7sharp says:

            @Edgar. @NH

            Let us revisit the phrase that Dr. Jose Rizal used:
            “Noli Me Tangere”

            Let us google for
            “Touch Me Not” Rapture
            https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Touch+Me+Not%22+Rapture

            Here is one of the results:
            http://www.bibleteacher.org/faq8.htm
            x-
            What did Jesus mean when He told Mary,
            “Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father”?
            -x

            Salamat.

            • Bert says:

              Malay ko ba riyan. All I know is that touch me not is a flower.

              • Bert,

                At lease you didn’t mistake edelweiss for eagle white (my favorite KTV memory from over there),

              • Joe America says:

                ahahahahahahaha, my Gott but you are good Bert. That put me on the floor with tears . . .

              • i7sharp says:

                Joe America, in response to Bert’s comment:
                x-
                ahahahahahahaha, my Gott but you are good Bert. That put me on the floor with tears …
                -x

                Pray tell, Joe …
                In what way is Bert good in his comment (as if it was called for)
                in relation to Dr. Rizal’s “Noli Me Tangere” (“Touch Me Not”)?

                Perhaps your reply should manifest some gravitas on your part – after all you have been made famous (as you yourself have said) by no less than the President of the Philippines in no less than his very last SONA (where, btw, there was no mention of Dr.Rizal).

                i7sharp

              • Joe America says:

                Bert is Master of dry wit, of humor, and it takes a finely honed sense of the ridiculous and sublime to recognize that no harm was intended in his response, and he left it to us to find whatever answer we wanted. As for gravitas, I cannot write in somebody else’s personality, so kindly just let me have mine. It is substantially harmless. Be not a moralist of others, I think. There are already way too many of them around, I think, disguised as institutions and righteous thinkers.

              • i7sharp says:

                Given the context, does this need description?:
                http://j.mp/rp-mimosa

                Some links might not work. The site was done more than two years ago.
                Your posting reminded me of it and I did a quick update.

              • i7sharp says:

                @Joe America
                “Bert is Master of dry wit, of humor, and it takes a finely honed sense of the ridiculous and sublime …
                ——-

                Just when I thought I had learned all that can be learned – through two episodes of “Seinfeld” every weeknight!
                Not to mention “The King of Queens” that come on their heels.

              • Bert says:

                🙂 Just goes to show that the world is a constant, that life is a continuous learning process, though some people never learn as I never learn good grammar. But you are correct, i7, I’m not a Master, Joe, Edgar, LCpl_X, josephivo, caliphman, Johnny Lin and some others are. Joe only said that out of charity to me, hehehe.

                Going back, please educate me about ‘touch me not’ whether it be by Jesus or Rizal that I may learn something from your vaunted wisdom.

              • Joe America says:

                Bert, I’m sorry, but you misrepresent yourself, out of unbound humility, I’m sure. You score 10 on the laugh-o-meter about as often as Edgar, these days. He has not gone sour, as far as I can tell, so I know that you are indeed worthy of the Master title. Master of the vaunted word scalpel.

          • edgar lores says:

            *******
            NHerrera,

            Ahaha! So we are assigning star destinations, are we? I was just imagining:

            o The Binay planet will have haciendas.
            o The Marcos planet will have good roads.
            o The Duterte planet will have no drug pushers.

            But what will the Society of Honor planet have? Endless discussions? Wisdom?

            Well, whatever it is, as long as there is beer and Skotch and popcorn; good company; effervescent, learned and scintillating talk… I, for one, will be contented.
            *****

        • chempo says:

          Edgar’s “teleportation” and Nherra’s “we will repeat the cycle”

          This is very interesting. I just have to tell this story, my favorite from Isaac Ashimov. Sorry a bit lenghty, but I assure you it’s worth eyeballing.

          1. Long time ago 2 security personnel were guarding a mainframe computer. As they ponder the darkness in their night shift, one guard asked the other “WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE EARTH WHEN THE SUN DIES?”. The other said “I dunno. Why don’t we ask the mainframe?” Those days the mainframe was a huge beast occupying a whole floor of the building. They punched the question and fed the punchcard into the reader. The mainframe cranked and the meagre RAM took hours to churn out the answer. Finally the dotmatric printer came to live and out came the report. It was disappointing. “EXISTING DATA DOES NOT PERMIT AN ANSWER”.

          2. The same scenario is repeated over the course of several years. Each time 2 persons chatting and the same question arose and they decided to ask the computer which provided the same disappointing answer. But in each scenario, the computer gets physically smaller and smaller and more power-packed more teckie. Easier input, faster computer response time.

          3. Then came this stage. 2 guys aboard a plane on their holiday trip. The same question came up and they decided to ask the computer. But this time, they don’t even have a computer. They punched the question into a hand-held gadget (smart-phone?) and they don’t even know where the CPU that will handle the question is physically. It’s just somewhere out there. (welcome to the world wide web — Ashimov saw this coming but it needed Al Gore to coin the www name 50 years later). Out came the same disappointing answer.

          4. Then came this last stage. (Edgar saw it coming). 2 guys met on a holiday trip. But they were no longer travelling physically. It’s just their thought forms in cyber space. The same question came up and they fed it to the computer. Nobody knows where or what the computer is anymore. It’s just there. But it too provided the same disappointing answer.

          5. Years passed and eventually, the sun does die. The whole universe was enveloped in total darkness. Every living cell died. Everything except that computer somewhere. It cannot die because it’s function is to answer everything. It’s got THE LAST QUESTION to solve. It exist somewhere for the next thousand years working through all those higher mathematics, quantum physics, till finally if found the answer. But still it cannot die because it need to convey the answer and it can’t do that as everyone has long since died.

          6. So it spend the next thousand years trying to figure out how to convey the answer to THE LAST QUESTION. At long last, Euraka. It knew how to convey the message to the humans. It snapped it’s fingers and said ……LET THERE BE LIGHT…….

          So my friends, it’s a cycle. The horror is that Philippines will relive it’s Marcoses and Binays again.

    • 5 & 6 had me in stitches….

    • Joe America says:

      Ahahahaha, yes, my final cut is 0%.

    • mercedes santos says:

      Edgar :

      I was in OZ for 2 months and I thought all was fine until I discovered Abbott and his mining cohorts; that mining queen is way down in the FORBES list compared to SM mogul !!! What’s up with that. I even saw an SM mall in China on my last visit, a month ago ???? China is an anomaly, modernity and primal side by side. Have you seen their loos ???? My grandma had better loos in her outhouse. May taboo pa ☺

      • edgar lores says:

        *******
        Abbott is the Erap of Oz — not in terms of corruption but in the ineptitude of the use of power.

        I hope you haven’t been stopped in the streets of Melbourne by the Border Force randomly checking on overstaying tourists.
        *****

        • mercedes santos says:

          Edgar:

          I think the first port of call is up north in Perth. You are right though, Melbourne’s CBD is almost like NYC, teeming with peeps.

          • mercedes santos says:

            Here’s an observation, Edgar :

            Whilst in Melbourne I saw only one Porsche sedan on the road; in China their tollways boast of Porsche’s sedans and SUV’s, BMW’s and VW’s. I am just wondering, is it possible to have knockoff’s Porsches ??? Our Chinese host says the peeps prefer German cars over Japanese cars . . . .Thank God, for Merkel, huh ☺

      • Juana Pilipinas says:

        Glad to see you back, mercedes.

        You are a hoot and a half.

    • caliphman says:

      That was just for the diploma, Bongbong Marcos Oxford style. That is different from the fees for the fully accredited degree, tuition for the requisite online courses to qualify for the degree, and of course there are the regular alumni reunion and fundraising events in the sun drenched beaches and pristine waters of Biliran island! If he really wants to get fancy, success is a JoeAm Enterprises LTD based in a Netherlands Antilles taxhaven…hahaha.

  4. NHerrera says:

    Joe, thanks for the listening/ non-listening bits for dummies. My default mode is:

    – When you smile because you learned something new or caught the joke.

    – When you want to know the facts for yourself, and are willing to put in the effort to look and verify or reject them.

    LCpl_X, thanks too for that bit of wisdom on speaking and listening.

  5. Bing Garcia says:

    Joe is a rock star now. Good!

  6. chempo says:

    Joe you had me at Hello.

    I wonder how many will just HEAR but never LISTEN.
    I wonder how many will LISTEN but never ACT on it.

    ‘Hearing’ is just perceiving the sounds in your ears.
    ‘Listening” is consciously knowing what the sounds/words are

    The YIN and YANG of listening :

    YIN is passive listening:
    Listen to the words, understand what it means, see the body languages, see the emotion behind it.
    YANG is active listening:
    Listen and ask questions, paraphase, encourage the flow, summarise.

    A degree in Taoism still does not auto qualify for Joeam’s diploma. Can I send you P100 direct and you photo-shop me a diploma. Let’s cut-off the cancer of the society.

  7. Loved the article and the lessons it teaches…err preaches. I was thinking if you published this before Primer began commenting and contributing, would he be in a listening mode? Just wondering.

    When will Angry Maude contribute another one? I like her style. I can imagine her response to the blase Arroyo8, with her no holds barred style, it will be a hoot, I’m sure.

    • The title of this latest offering is : Listening for dummies…

      dummy – (from your dictionary)

      a stupid person; a dolt.

      A figure of a person or an animal manipulated by a ventriloquist.

      A silent or taciturn person

      A person or entity that is the named party to a transaction but that acts on behalf of another concealed person or entity. Also called nominee.

      so, which is which?

    • Joe America says:

      She and her boyfriend rarely stop by these days. I think our family lifestyle crimps her . . . um . . . unrestrained lifestyle. Maybe I can catch her in a moment of intellectual heat and get an article.

  8. josephivo says:

    “What an idiot”, my first thought more than 3 (4?) years ago and sometimes still thinking it. Why? See Edgar’s comment.

    • Bert says:

      Not really, josephivo. Being famous and preaching and lording it over the bright guys in his blog all at the same time is hard stuff. And, getting into entrepreneurship in addition is a master genius stroke however small time it may seems to be. Our dear Joe is good for the country while the genius Binay is worse, hehehehe.

  9. karl garcia says:

    what’s wrong with preaching? and why don’t people say practice what you teach? I miss commenting. .

  10. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    This is the blogsite that:
    1. Benigno got the courage and intellectual basis to tell Cayetano and Trillanes to stop the drib-a-drab against Binay;
    2. made outdating outdated in silence;
    3. … DOJ promulgated Affidavits must be supported by evidences;
    4. … made Ombudsman go back to the drawing board and gather some more evidences against Binay while Trillanes and Cayetano are bismirching Binay’s name and dignity with the glee of others who are hoping what happened to Binay may not happen to them and their pet politicians
    5. … columnists have agreed in unison in the recent anniversary of EDSA that EDSA REvolution was not a revolution after all !!! Thank goodness !!!!
    6. … They made Jose Rizal, The Required Course as elective
    7. … They made Filipino, A Requisite course as elective. English is Second Language is still a must.
    8. … MADE AMERICA THE PILGRIMMAGE OF CHOISE THAN JERUSALEM. If you have not gone to America you have never made it, like, if you have not gone to Jerusalem wrote your wishes on a peper stick it to the Wailing Wall, you are doomed to perdition.

    Thank you Joe for delivering our advocacies.

    Psssst! Oh, hey, Benigno, I know you are reading this site, TELL US ABOUT CORONA. What made you hate him? What is personal between you and him? If you are not telling us now, I’d be happy to read it in your tell-all autobio. This I tell you, you never saw Korina coming did ya? What a mess.

    • Joe America says:

      Hahaha, my pleasure. I am the medium, you are the message. I’d be more interested in Mr. Aquino’s take on the BOC Commissioner Lina. Harry Roque called him “hollow block faced”, and it is one of the rare times I am inclined to agree with Loopy Harry. What’s with Lina’s stonewalling on reported balikbayan box container fees being paid by importers as protection money? “Name the names” is a hollow block response. What, he doesn’t care?

    • Bert says:

      I will tell you, Renato Pacifico. Renato Pacifico, ehe, este, Renato Corona pala, was the former chief of staff of Gloria. Do you know that? You don’t. When Gloria became president, Corona was made Chief Justice by President Gloria for very obvious reasons.

      And then in the 2010 presidential election the Filipino people elected Benigno Noynoy Aquino as president for his advocacy and promise to the people that he will initiate a clean up in government if elected and will go after the corrupt politicians and government officials who plundered the wealth of the nation. It so happened that former president Gloria was one of the main targets of this clean up. What could the new president do if there is a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who will protect his former boss? Walang magagawa, ‘di ba?

      Now you know why President Noynoy did what was necessary?

      Okay na?

      • “Corona was made Chief Justice by President Gloria for very obvious reasons” via an unconstitutional means – a midnight appointment, abetted by the Arroyo 8.

        • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

          Arroyo 8 made the quorum of approval supplanted by just one person, Benigno and some sleazy little lady in red waving photocopied dollar bank statement. If it happened to Corona hope it happens to everybody. This is simply a promotion of perpetuation of violation of banking secrecy law. My apologies, it doesn’t work in any 1stworld country if it worked the Little Lady in Red would be donning an Orange Prison Suit. But this is the Philippines, so, it allows you to perpetuate what is wrong.

          I thought you were for Hustisya Matuwid.

          • MRP, making midnight appointments is a cardinal sin, a very insulting one to boot, that can be made by an outgoing president to an incoming one. In this case, they were done by GMA to take care of her personal interest in all the government agencies where she appointed so many of them, (the SC CJ is just one of them) so that her hold on these agencies will not lessen long after she vacated the palace. It’s no wonder PNOY had a truly difficult time introducing reforms because of these numerous remnants that twarted all his attempts. If you can’t find anything wrong with that, I don’t know what can.

      • Except that Gloria still has the numbers in the current SC, hence this these pro Enrile, pro Estrada and anti-people rulings that are being shoved down our throats and all we can do is grit our teeth and flood the social media and blogs like this and raissa’s with our disgust.

      • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

        It is more than midnight appointment. Never seen him frothing in the mouth against Corona and imperil his presidency just for one person. Nope, Sir, the midnight appointment is only a vehicle of his personal jealousy against Corona.

        Comparing Benigno’s demeanor against Billion-peso-crook Binay he tread more gingerly and carefully. So, Bert, you are saying stealing Billion is nothing to Benigno.

        • Bert says:

          Hehehe, Renato Pacifico, natutulog ka sa pansitan. Come back to the Philippines and watch what are happening here under the administration of President Aquino. Do you know the reasons why Binay’s ratings in voter’s preference is no longer what it used to be? No, you don’t know. I will tell you. That’s because under the administration of President Noynoy, stealing millions, or billions, or trillions, will not be tolerated so therefore must be exposed. The thieves will suffer for it.

          Now, again, you know.

    • MRP, may I request that you provide links for numbers 1-8. my head is spinning and my eyeball is rotating, too.

      In the last para, I think it’s trabaho lang, walang personalan. Nothing personal, just doing his work.

      Joe, chempo, LCpl_X, karl and I are in a serious mode or is today satire day? a bit sleepy again…haisst…but I did finish the article and all the ensuing comments, even MRP’s. as has been my habit.

      I agree with chempo, let’s cut-off the cancer of the society, but sending you the 100 direct is a bit of a problem, we do not want to know where you are, what we don’t know, we cannot tell…hehehe

      • Listening with intent, is after all simply elicitation (whether official or unofficial, business or pleasure, work or hobby, for the 3 glands or just simply for the act itself–that’s conversation). Diploma’s for everyone, and it better be pigskin, something fitting of a back lit wall frame, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vellum

      • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

        I take your “habit” a complement, thank you. In most Filipino blogs and videos, may it be Youtube, Yahoo! and others except HuffingtonPost and ABCNews, in my one of those pseudonyms they call me, so many dizzying names, like: Retard, Have-I-taken-my- medication, bading, bakla they even drag my mother and father great great grandparents who passed away long time ago.

        Despite what I am accused of as retard, UP-dropout, UPCAT-failure they still follow me because I am a Donald Trump of Philippine blogsite never mince a word EXCEPT in Joeam’s site. Joeam carry a big stick and a whip. I make sure I post comments within code-of-conduct.

        Since an intelligent person is retard, mental who has not taken the meds, Filipinos do not vote for retards and mental. That is why they get whacked by the likes of Lina and Binays who is definitely not mental and retard and by Sreneos’ outdating of Aguinaldo which should have been outdated long time ago. The geneius of Sereno is outdating Aguinaldo in the middle of the fight.

        A good illustration of Sereno’s outdating which Filipinos can connect but I doubt they can is, like, immediately before Manny Pacquiao steps into the ring the referee tells Manny no Praying, no wearing of rosaries. Not before. Not after. During. No forewarning, And that cannot never ever happen in the 1stWorld that Filipinos wanted to arrive.

        God Help the Philippines. And I am his instrument. If they donot like me, they they do not like God because I am his messenger.

      • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

        Mary, I have to tread carefully in Joeam’s site. I have to mind my manners and use choicest of choice words. I do not want to be banned. Joeam’s site is the last remaining site in the Philippines where intellectuals congregate, which are only very few in the Philippines, while others listen to us debate.

        I have no solution to offer but out of my critique someone may have some rare nuggets of solution.

        Oh, by the way, you must have followed me about my rant against the Philippine Post Office. My long lost relatives in the Philippines finally GOT the documents I sent them. They GOT it. They did not RECEIVE it. They went to Phillippine Post after two months of waiting. The PhilPost was waiting for my relatives to pickup the envelope. My relatives was waiting for PhilPost to deliver. PhilPost never notified them to pick-up. So my relatives never knew it had arrived. I was incensed because I have to gather all those documents together again and sent it thru unofficial couriers.

        I am glad it is over, the waiting game.

        • Fedex it, MRP…we never mail docs via PO…saves us the sress of waiting

          • Fedex, LBC, and many more courier companies, computerized to boot, where you can track the whereabouts of your parcels/documents. My cousins regularly send food items, documents to and from Washington, California, Texas, Virginia, even to Guam, Japan, Philippines, Spain and Canada…no problem at all. Most of them are registered nurses employed by Uncle Sam in the US Navy. This is the computer age, we can track everything. Post offices are so obsolete now, leave them and their corrupt ways to nibble their fingers all day long.

        • chempo says:

          Philpost works in a very funny way. I had something couriered over from Singapore via DHL. Postman came to my office to drop me a notification form — my parcel has arrived, it’s at xxxxxxxx please pick up by XXXX. So I braved the traffic and retrieved. it. Why could’nt they send the postman with the parcel? If it’s a question of cost, just apply a fee.

          Q: Why is Manila traffic always clogged?
          A: Because the roads are jammed with people moving about needlessly.

          • Joe America says:

            I love the rule that vans can only drop passengers off at other terminals but not pick them up. So they leave passengers without a ride and go out empty to plug up the streets and waste gas.

            • Juana Pilipinas says:

              Really? That rule does not make sense. What about a “one off, one on” rule instead? That nonsensical rule can be enforced and Filipinos are actually abiding by it? Are you sure you are not in a topsy turvy parallel universe, Joe?

              • Joe America says:

                My world is right side up, THIS one is upside down. 🙂

              • chempo says:

                It’s true Juana. Joe was quoting my experience. Take FX Ayala Center terminal/Paranaqua Evacomm terminal — 18 people squeed tight. Evacomm/Ayala Center trip — zero pax.

              • I so thank God for company cars with drivers..they make life easier for me to travel to and from work, courts, hospitals that I never experience this problem, except of course the traffic caused by processions during regular fiestas, rallies by INC and left leaning groups, and accidents that clog the main roads. My boss lets me hire staff and I do hire those who live near me so I can share a ride, car pooling is great equalizer, it seems a totally waste of fuel and road space for cars with a single passenger occupying the same road area as an FX with 10 passengers.

          • That’s strange. We usually get ours dlivered to our door via courier vans. They even deliver to my aunt who lives in a far flung sitio in Batangas. She usually receives up to 4 balikbayan boxes, old and new clothes, hand me down gadgets for distribution to our poorer relatives. We do not have these problems being talked about nowadays.

            Just yesterday, we received a super big balikbayan box delivered from Hong Kong…I now have a fresh supply of clothes for work, portable electric fans powered by cell phone chargers, brand new bags, boots, solar icharger, dried mushrooms, even garbage bags…woohooo!

            • chempo says:

              Sorry Mary and my apologies to DHL. That incident I sent by Singpost (Singapost Postal Service is a privatised corp). So Singpost to Philpost. (Yes DHL would have delivered directly)

              • It’s OK…, chempo. There are so many courier companies nowadays, competition is good and the our citizens (diaspora included) are benefiting from it. Business is booming, too with so many OFW and Filipino migrants who send goods to relatives here. Extended families are truly wonderful.

  11. I have read/listened but have to admit I don’t get the message this time. Reminds me of something out of Musashis “Book of Five Rings” regarding the Void that I shall paraphrase here: “after the four walls and the roof are completed, the empty space between is the most important”.

    After all has been said, it is up to us to fill in the blanks, to think about and especially to act on it – doesn’t matter how much percent we get and who we give percentages to or how many years…

  12. NHerrera says:

    Gee whiz. Can’t budge the underground barrel on the left and right, up and down; and you have the fat guy getting stuck in front and the unhinged fellow trooper at the back going nutty. I would rather be in the Charge of the Light Brigade:

    Cannon to right of them,
    Cannon to left of them,
    Cannon in front of them
    Volley’d and thunder’d …

    No wonder you got yourself a serious case of claustrophobia — caught yourself in a barrel, but not for fun. Hahaha.

    Seriously, I would be claustrophobic too in that situation. I pray, that I will not even dream being in that nightmare of a situation.

    • If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
      Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
      If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
      If all men count with you, but none too much;
      If you can fill the unforgiving minute
      With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run
      ,
      Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
      And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

      Joe’s “unforgiving minute”, NH.

      • NHerrera says:

        Yes, Kipling’s “unforgiving minute” alright. JoeAm must have seen his past flash in digital speed in that unforgiving minute; hence the claustrophobia.

        Ok, Joe, my last post on the subject. Won’t want to give you the jitters.

    • Joe America says:

      It was seriously intense. The fat guy finally rolled over onto his back and squeezed through the dented barrel that had caused the problem. I’m actually sorry I brought the matter up . . . vivid recollection . . . not to mention that we were all covered with mud from having low-crawled through a mud pit before dropping down the hole and there was no AC in the hole, for sure . . .

      • ugh! but I thought crawling on your stomach would have flatten the stomach (of the fat guy) making it easy to maneuver the barrel…mmm..barrel dented downwards, his stomach is on the way…ok, my imagination is failing me, I’d better stop too. hahaha !

      • caliphman says:

        As an artillery officer, the real horror I would think would be having your face nuzzled against the muzzle of a howitzer ready to unleash a deadly gas attack! Hehehe

  13. Bisdak says:

    “When you aren’t thinking “what an idiot”. hahahaha….I got me rolling on the floor, Joeam! I think I like the air you breath and water you drink. Are their still lots for sale in your neighborhood?

    • NHerrera says:

      Allow me, @Bisdak,

      Capturing ONLY THE ASPECT of listening associated with the “what an idiot” phrase, this is what I believe JoeAm wants to say:

      Having read or heard a person’s statements:

      If you are NOT thinking what an idiot that person is then you ARE listening.

      But like you, I like the air that JoeAm breaths and the water he drinks. Would like to buy some too.

    • Joe America says:

      Yes, plenty of them, but the price is going up and the titles are often messy. I’m glad to have contributed to your momentary happiness.

  14. cha says:

    Take the test :

    How good are your listening skills?

    http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/listening-quiz.htm

  15. In my opinion, a Philippines which is universally pro-Aquino would be detrimental. Opposition of some sort should exist. Why? As I’ve mentioned before, there must be checks-and-balance. Dissent has a role in society: at least in theory it prevents excesses. Remember, if there was no outrage over the PDAF, it would still be around. If P-Noy makes a mistake and no one bothers to tell him, P-Noy risks making the same mistake.

  16. i7sharp says:

    @Joe America
    x-
    Interestingly enough, I admire people who are steeped in their faith, and the discipline that requires, and who display a sacrifice of time and self that I am unable to get to. I concede, I’m selfish. And yet, it is not for me to decide which is the real faith, and I think there is a considerable amount of selfishness amongst those who would impose their faith upon others, arguing in deadly fashion that theirs is the “higher” faith. To me, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think your faith is the best, obviously it is not, for it sows division rather than heals.
    -x
    ——-

    “If you think your faith is the best, obviously it is not, for it sows division rather than heals.”

    Joe, can you please comment on this?
    http://j.mp/ja-of
    “the faith of Christ”

    Salamat.

    • What did you say, Joe? 🙂

      Welcome back Karl!

      I like the recent reaction of the OFWs to BoC. Boy! The social media spread the discontent like wild fire in 192 countries in no time flat. The OFWs are wired to yin yang because that is how they connect to those they have left behind so the response to the uncomfortable stimulus was instantaneous. To the President’s credit, he listened and did something about it. That incident is an example of how democracy works.

      • chempo says:

        If only they had re-acted with the same intensity to the SC’s bail ruling on Enrille.

        • Me too, chempo

          I think the balikbayan boxes issue hit home, literally, for a lot of immigrants and OFWs but the Enrile bail SC ruling did not. The members of civil societies and the politically aware made some noises but their voices did not reach the critical mass needed to jolt those who could do something about it. The decision is not final according to Sereno so let’s hope that the Enrile doctrine will be overturned.

          • Mary Grace P. gonzales says:

            So the decision is not final, I hope the egg splatter on the faces of the Arroyo 8 owing to the fragile, frail Enrile showing up for work in the Senate will be a wake up moment for them, And I hope it it was a rude awakening for them on top of the eggs on their faces….how I wish it’s shit and not eggs. Ooops, sorry, just venting.

            • Hahaha! I think this is the funniest comment section I’ve read in a while. Everybody seems to be having fun and at their wittiest.

              I am also ticked about Bersamin’s justification of his group’s decision. Manong Johnny looked healed and sprightly after the bail hearing and when he posted bail. I imagined he skipped around the Senate halls on his first day back.

    • i7sharp says:

      @JoeAm, @LCpl_X,

      Related to what I have just written is this:
      http://j.mp/ja-austerity
      which is about “salvation by austerity” – which I must say, to LCpl_X, I don’t recall encountering before.

      JoeAm,
      You wrote:
      x-
      Another thing you will learn about JoeAm is that he does not belong to any organizations. Not a one. No church, no civic organization like Rotary Club, certainly not Boy Scouts, no political movement or party, no advocacy group, no club, alumni or otherwise. The last organization he belonged to was the company that fired him into early retirement because the new French owners found him redundant, whereas the previous Japanese owners only found him confounding.

      The background to this has something to do with Joe’s claustrophobia, a condition imposed upon him when, in the guise of training, the US Army made him crawl 30 yards through a tunnel of barrels buried 5 feet underground …

      Plus, Joe could never figure out why churches, as organizations, seemed not to walk in what he understood the steps of Jesus to be. So Joe, who is me in a different grammatical person, finds spirituality alone and moral guidance by thinking about things.
      -x

      The context of the above excerpts and the word, “underground,” brought to mind Richard Wurmbrand’s 3 years of solitary confinement 30 feet underground and his subsequent Congressional testimony in the U.S.:
      http://j.mp/i7rw-us

      Regarding churches, let me bring this up,
      “The Insolence of the Churches”
      … with the hope I can somehow relate it to Rizal’s
      “The Indolence of the Filipino.”

      Salamat.

      i7sharp

      • i7,

        When I see url links and my handle in your posts,

        I get a tinge of what feels like adrenaline rush because I never quite know where I’ll end up (and that is why I love your posts), plus you’ve made the url tiny erasing recognition adding to the mystery–I feel like Alice every time I hover my mouse to click, ‘should I click? should I go down this rabbit hole?’.

        This time, the links turned out to be my own posts, which brings to mind flattery and the 2nd sentence of Col. Herrington’s point about listening, which you’ve embodied–deserving of a pigskin diploma no matter the current skim rate.

        I was slightly disappointed though because they were my own posts you’ve linked, it was like diving into the rabbit hole full of intrigue, and into your own ass. So I suggest next time, when linking to a comment from these threads, don’t shorten it–just use the entire url, so I know you’re simply linking to a previous comment.

        about “salvation by austerity” – which I must say, to LCpl_X, I don’t recall encountering before.

        I’m thinking about trademarking that phrase and build a whole church around it. But I doubt it can compete with the other two Christian salvation theories. What do you think, i7 ? Like St. Origen, the initial rite of passage for this church is self-castration

        (I’m still trying to figure out what the women equivalent to this would be vis-a-vis the new development of women’s viagara, http://www.viagraforwomeneffects.com/ )– this rite of passage will be our answer to the Jain “kesh lochan”, let’s pluck out more important things.

        Put some skin in the game, or in this case, take some skin out of the game. LOL!

        • i7sharp says:

          @LCpl_X
          x-
          i7,

          When I see url links and my handle in your posts, …
          -x

          Please call me, “i7sharp.”
          7 characters.
          Note “rp” at the end – the erstwhile two-letter code for the Philippines which I think is better than the current “ph.”

          Nothing is actually removed when I “shorten” a URL – using bit.ly or j.mp, which are the same banana, so to speak.
          It helps me – and others, I hope – by using a keyword – such as “austerity” to link to a particular thread: #132546, in this case.
          If you know of an easier or better way, please share the info.

          “salvation by austerity” seems to be “salvation by works” and can lead to boasting,
          “I practice more austerity than other people, ….”

          How about reading about “Amazing Grace,”
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace
          and taking note of, say, this:
          x–
          Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
          That sav’d a wretch like me!
          –x

          “The faith of Christ” saves even the worst of people.

          Salamat.

          • “salvation by austerity” seems to be “salvation by works” and can lead to boasting

            Hence the necessity for the initial rite of passage–no one would boast that.

            And it’s not “by works” precisely because works is not mandated, simply returning to the original form, back to John the Baptist, Jesus, James’ Ebionis and the Desert Fathers–introspection.

            When there was monastic revival in the Dark Ages, some fraternities had a little too much fun with other sororities (nunneries), again why the initial rite of passage is necessary. One can argue it’s still very much the same now over there–

            what’s the percentage of former seminary attendess who continue to law school and become lawyers?

            Everyone who purports to be holy or of God must perform self-castration. That’s the only way. All other theories pose a myriad of loopholes, self-castration extinguishes all loopholes.

            When you are without testicles the impetus to listen is stronger. Jesus’ is austerity. Faith alone is Paul’s doing, and should be reconsidered, otherwise all roads labeled “faith alone” lead to one place, and that’s Joel Osteen’s mansion.

            There’s a very good chance Paul was wrong.

            If you know of an easier or better way, please share the info.

            There’s a good chance I’m the only one clicking your links. If you want more people to click on these links, don’t cut ’em, don’t change ’em.

            By posting the original url and copy/pasting what you want to share (go straight to the point, then the entire link) you will save people’s time–let us see the original link to ascertain if the link is legit.

            By taking out the original url address, and making it your own designed url, you’re making it into some sort of surprise, I like surprises , but others don’t.

            • i7sharp says:

              @LCpl_X
              x-
              If you know of an easier or better way, please share the info.

              There’s a good chance I’m the only one clicking your links. If you want more people to click on these links, don’t cut ’em, don’t change ’em.

              By posting the original url and copy/pasting what you want to share (go straight to the point, then the entire link) you will save people’s time–let us see the original link to ascertain if the link is legit.

              By taking out the original url address, and making it your own designed url, you’re making it into some sort of surprise, I like surprises , but others don’t.
              -x
              ——-

              Let us take an example.

              The two are exactly the same – except that in no. 2, the url is shortened.

              1.
              You can see here how much you can get out of “customized” url:
              https://joeam.com/2014/12/05/the-continuing-occupation-of-the-oligarchs/#comment-102994

              2
              You can see here how much you can get out of “customized” url:.
              http://j.mp/ja-bit

              Question:
              How would you improve either one? You know of an easier way?
              (I really like to know.)

              LCpl_X, Joe America, … anyone?

              • karl garcia says:

                I 7sharp, I thought sharp represents your avatar the eye of an eagle.I love how lance corporal x puts it, the tumbling down the rabbit hole, it not only reminds me of Alice it also reminds me of the Matrix.

              • Number 1 is better because we can see the url address, that gives us some info to help us consider if we should click or not.

                Number 2, we don’t know if it’s gonna be a link to porn (which I’m actually secretly hoping every time you post a customized link, ie. an unrenewed copy/paste done in haste).

                I agree though, if the url you are linking to is really long, for example that Google book to Joseph Conrad’s exact page on ‘Heart of Darkness’ (I had to shorten that link).

                Unless, there’s special circumstances involved, ie. really long url, then go with Number 1 (let us see the link, so we can decide better whether to click or not)

                (karl,

                Rabbit hole is exactly how it feels.)

              • i7sharp says:

                @karl
                “I 7sharp, I thought sharp represents your avatar the eye of an eagle.I love how lance corporal x puts it, the tumbling down the rabbit hole, it not only reminds me of Alice it also reminds me of the Matrix.”
                ——-

                “Alice”? “Matrix”?

                Karl, had you dug a bit deeper, …
                hmmm, … that word “bit” … it is the same as the suffix of the shortcut I used as an example.

                As I was saying, had you dug a *bit* deeper,… by, first, clicking on the link,
                …//j.mp/ja-bit (replace “…” with “http:”)
                you could have known how you can learn of any province by simply changing the last two letters.
                (Some links may not work, due to various reasons, but I can try to “revive” them.)

                Just now I changed the “es” (Eastern Samar) to “pm” (Pampanga, my home province) to see if the link still works. It was good to see it still works.

                Karl, let me drive the point farther by, first, asking you what province first comes to your mind.
                Can you do me that favor?

                btws (“by the ways”; I have more than one:

                1. It is not “I 7sharp”
                If you wish, you can try …j.mp/ja-i7 to see if it is sharp.

                2. The “ja” means the link goes to a “Joe America” posting.

                3. Would you like to revisit this?:
                …//j.mp/ja-crrp
                and try again the site (President.gov.ph) you wanted me to try to get a copy of the CRRP?

                4. This, below, is no big deal compared to what your father (if I had read you right) have contributed to the government:
                I helped (in a big way, if I may say so myself) in effecting the very first emergency exercise at the then Manila International Airport.
                I do not know if there has been another “exercise” since then.

                Salamat.

                ps Did I hear right? You are/were sick? Let me just say, I wish you the best of health.

              • i7sharp says:

                @LCpl_X
                Unless, there’s special circumstances involved, ie. really long url, then go with Number 1 (let us see the link, so we can decide better whether to click or not)
                ——-

                Can’t the context (immediate or not) help you decide?

                Knowing that I created this (because I had just said so) would you dare try this?
                http://j.mp/ja-rj01

                All right, here is more info:
                “rj” is for “Ray James”
                “01” is for the 1st of what could more than 1. No, there is no “02” … yet.
                Some he/she has stopped posting – under the same handle (if indeed it is a handle)

                Do you know Ray James? Have you read any of his postings?

                Salamat

              • karl garcia says:

                I am just glad to be conversing with you i7sharp after my deleted comments incident with you,I have to apologize. In the move the matrix there was a line there about Alice tumbling down the rabit hole,it was a line by Morpheus.

              • i7sharp says:

                @karl garcia
                “I am just glad to be conversing with you i7sharp after my deleted comments incident with you,I have to apologize.”
                ——-

                Frankly, Karl, I don’t remember anything of it, right off.
                Senior moments?
                Or, not really caring about what apparently deserved to be deleted.

                Thanks for the link to the video, but I hope
                a. you will name at least one province you are interested in
                b. give an update on CRRP (in case you have found a copy). If not, please disregard the request.

                Salamat.

              • i7sharp says:

                Karl,

                I viewed just now the 4-min video – showing Lawrence Fishburne (kalbo) and Keanu Reeves.

                Here is a 1-min video showing Mang Pugo (kalbo) and Bentot,
                http://j.mp/i7-bentot
                which I hope you will watch.

                “Laughter is the best medicine.”

                Salamat.

              • karl garcia says:

                dami ko pa palang utang, I do not know where to find a copy of the database.Ok I will name the province of my dad which is Quezon.

              • karl garcia says:

                Tang tarantang,. 🙂 Thanks for the laugh. In the seventies, I remember Pugo in that sit com show with Jay Ilagan,My son, My Son.

              • i7sharp says:

                @karl garcia
                “Ok I will name the province of my dad which is Quezon.”

                Salamat, Karl.

                Using the pattern that one can see in
                …//j.mp/ja-bit

                1. one can replace
                the “es” (Eastern Samar) with “qz” (Quezon).

                http://j.mp/mun-12qz

                This will link to a list of the municipalities (and cities) of the province.
                I had coded them arbitrarily; I do not know if there is an official two-character abbreviation of the Philippine provinces.

                2. one can replace
                the “es” (Eastern Samar) with “zs” (Zamboanga del Sur).

                http://j.mp/data-12zs

                This will link to comprehensive data on the province.

                I hope the links will work for you.
                Otherwise I will be red-faced. 😦

              • karl garcia says:

                From Lufthansa, you were assigned at the air traffic then now you are into big data. What’s next ? No need to answer that.

              • i7sharp says:

                @karl
                “From Lufthansa, you were assigned at the air traffic then now you are into big data. What’s next ? No need to answer that.”
                ——-

                Karl, I would like to give an answer, fwiw.

                Actually my first job was at the Manila Control Tower which is where I had said I had spent some time with Senator Aquino. What happened was that the Luisita aircraft (a Beechcraft Baron) flown by Capt Vic Palpalatoc had a landing gear problem and the senator communicated with the pilot from there.
                (I did not know I had mentioned having worked with Lufthansa. But I know I had mentioned that Luisita had another pilot, for their Cessna: Rael Salcedo. I think that was a mistake. Rael had flown for Canlubang (the sugar plantation of the Yulos), not Luisita.)

                What’s next?
                I told Bert just now “what’s next.”
                Search for “42.029” in this thread.
                Nakakahiya kasing ulitin ang panaginip ko. O pagkamalan na nahihibang.

                ps I have worked in 40 different jobs. I was a TNT is the U.S. for more years than I care to count. My family missed the very first appointment with an immigration judge and got a “deportation order” for that.

                I think I have talked too much in this thread already. Waaay too much.
                I will try to resist posting for at least 24 hours. If not 24 days.

                I wish you to best.

              • karl garcia says:

                I wish you the best, i7sharp. Sorry about Lufthansa, maybe because I keep on seeing their hangar when I pass the skyway here in pinas.I know it is that germanwings conversation you had with Irineo. oh well. what a mixup.

              • karl garcia says:

                Rey James? A handle? then what a resume! of a British expat who was consultant of Andersen consulting,having implemented SAP all over and has worked for IBM. He started a long post about economic data about poverty incidence,GDP,etc.
                His last post was about the degree of Mar Roxas as reported to him by his executive assistant,Wooh, this time I am sure my memory did not play tricks on me.

          • sonny says:

            LC, there is no St Origen precisely because of the castration. He is still included among the Fathers of the Church, though.

            • LOL!

              Yeah, I know, I’m trying to bring it back. I’m no Catholic, but he’s always been my favourite Saint–next to St. Francis’ girlfriend.

              • sonny says:

                Well, you’re not alone, LC. Pope Benedict XVI is also a “fan” of Origen. I don’t quite follow “St Francis’ girlfriend.” (?)

              • That’s St. Claire of Assisi, so indirectly St. Francis’ himself, because how can a man convince a woman (especially Italian) to give up all pleasures of life for austerity–“Their life consisted of manual labour and prayer, went barefoot, slept on the ground, ate no meat and observed almost complete silence.”

                I didn’t know that about Pope Benedict (I thought it would be Pope Francis to bring back St. Origen). Is St. Origen and his views, especially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis#Patristic_Christianity , known in the Philippines? It seems Benedict didn’t really tackle apokatastasis , but Pope Francis hinted to it… do you think the Church is stirring towards this goal?

                And how do you think that will change things, will it change much?

            • sonny says:

              LC, I follow conventional Catholic hagiography as far as St Claire is concerned.

              Apokatastasis was declared anathema, i.e. heresy, by Council of Constantinople (543 AD), looks like.

              http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

              Let me ask: what are you doing on Catholic playground? 🙂

              • There’s a guy who wrote a book about how John the Baptist was actually Buddhist (Ashoka having sent emissaries to that region, and beyond ie. Greece, around 300 or so years before Jesus), I forget the book still looking.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae , supposedly this is the reason why Mary & Joseph with baby Jesus in tow (according to one gospel) took off to Egypt.

                But my interests, re the old Saints, Ebionis (less known) and the Desert Fathers, is in trying to figure the connection, if there is one– the common denominator it seems is “austerity”. Keep in mind that the Buddha, was a Jain drop-out (hence the Middle Path, he didn’t wanna go all the way).

                St. Origen seems to have gone all the way, and then some (by some I mean his testicles). That act strikes me more of being an Indian thing than a Jewish thing.

                On apokatastasis , is what Pope Francis saying below just mere PR to get atheists to do some good work, or is this a heresy he is reviving…

                Pope Francis stated: “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                I admire Francis for his inclusivity, but is that Christianity he is preaching? He is saying good works alone, and not even faith, is necessary.
                *****

              • edgar,

                And we’re back to our old discussion from when Joe was on vacation. I would argue that it is still very much Christianity, before the time of consolidation, before these synods, councils of this and that, which were sometimes better than a UFC match, http://www.uscatholic.org/node/5820 .

                Take away works & take away faith, and what you have is salvation by austerity– no less legitimate, probably the only thing that Jesus really hammered on. The fact that Pope Francis took on St. Francis’ name, could mean that he’ll push for that next–sure have faith, do work, but more than all that, live austerely.

                Faith and works, come secondary or tertiary, the order matters not–just the first, austerity.

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                That begs the question: Salvation by austerity for what?

                To be heirs to the kingdom of heaven? For treasures in heaven?
                *****

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Well, there are biblical verses that say that Francis is wrong.
                *****

              • For what, you say?

                Rabia of Basra, was seen running through the streets of Basra carrying a pot of fire in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. When asked what she was doing, she said,“I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to Allah God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of Allah God.”

                Baruch Spinoza:

                “This love to God above everything else ought to occupy the mind, for this love is connected with all the modifications of the body, by all of which it is cherished.

                The idea of God which is in us is adequate and perfect, and therefore in so far as we contemplate God do we act and consequently no sorrow can exist with the accompanying idea of God; that is to say, no one can hate God.

                Love to God cannot be turned into hatred. But some may object, that if we understand God to be the cause of all things, we do for that very reason consider Him to be the cause of sorrow. But I reply, that in so far as we understand the causes of sorrow, it ceases to be a passion, that is to say, it ceases to be sorrow; and therefore in so far as we understand God to be the cause of sorrow do we rejoice.

                This love to God is the highest good which we can seek according to the dictate of reason; is common to all men; and we desire that all may enjoy it. It cannot, therefore, be sullied by the emotion of envy, nor by that of jealousy, but, on the contrary, it must be the more strengthened the more people we imagine to rejoice in it.

                It is possible to show in the same manner that there is no emotion directly contrary to this love and able to destroy it, and so we may conclude that this love to God is the most constant of all the emotions, and that, in so far as it is related to the body, it cannot be destroyed unless with the body itself. What its nature is, in so far as it is related to the mind alone, we shall see hereafter.” http://www.iep.utm.edu/spinoza/#SH6d

                Answer: Simply the love of God.

              • chempo says:

                LCP — ” John the Baptist was actually Buddhist ”

                There are records that Jesus spent those lost years in India. He was know as St Issa.
                And when you think of the Three Kings that came from the East — India is East of Bethlehem.

                Jesus’s teaching of love and pacifism seems to have its roots in Buddhism. I pondered over this for a long time. But there is a conflict – the Buddhist central belief of reincarnation is nonentity in Christianity. Then I came across Edgar Cayce and it was mind blowing.

              • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

                chempo,

                Looks like reincarnation has been in those parts for a long time now, whether it came from India or organic–not sure. But it’s there.

                There’s only 3 places you can go after death, nowhere, somewhere better, somewhere worst, so coming up with reincarnation seems do-able w/out exposure to outside traditions,

                it’s not such an arcane concept.

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                There are three interrelated concepts with respect to coming back from death: reincarnation, rebirth, resurrection.

                Resurrection is the coming back of a dead person to life in the same body or form. Jesus was resurrected.

                Reincarnation is the coming back from death to be reborn in another body. It is usually understood to be rebirth in a human body. Edgar Cayce believed in reincarnation.

                Rebirth is the coming back from death to be reborn in another form, not necessarily human. In Buddhism and Hinduism, one may be reborn as an insect or a goat… or a god The goal of Buddhism is to liberate oneself from all attachments to become free of the cycle or rebirth (samsara) and attain nirvana.

                Other related terms are transmigration, metempsychosis and palingenesis.
                *****

          • Bert says:

            ““The faith of Christ” saves even the worst of people.”

            That’s me. I still have hope yet? But…but…save from what? Do I want to be saved?…that is the question.

            • i7sharp says:

              Bert,
              I am glad you are asking – whether you are serious or not.
              But I do hope you are serious.

              (Please keep in mind I am not a member, much less a leader, of an “organized” church – such as the INC, the RCC, etc.
              I share what I believe is true and will welcome any criticism or attack on it.)

              In the New Testament,
              the word, “saved,” first occurs in the verse that follows
              John 3:16
              which is said to be the best-known of all verses.

              Here is one way to remember John 3:16:
              https://www.google.com/search?q=John+3:16+tebow&tbm=isch
              Tim Tebow was born in Makati (Philippines).

              John 3:16
              For God so loved the world, that
              he gave his only begotten Son, that
              whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
              but have everlasting life.

              John 3:17
              For God sent not his Son into
              the world to condemn the world; but
              that the world through him might be
              saved.

              Bert, I know I have not yet really answered your question, but let me ask,
              Are we OK, so far?
              Am I doing fine?
              You have any additional question?

              Salamat.

            • Bert says:

              Not okay yet, i7. Please just answer the question, if you know. Save from what?

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Bert,

                Good question.

                The answer of LCpl_X to the same question was: “For the love of God.”

                To me, this is not a satisfactory answer because it does not address the question. I was not asking WHY. I was asking WHAT. WHAT are we being saved from?

                Let us see if i7sharp can provide another answer.
                *****

              • i7sharp says:

                Bert,

                In simplest terms that I can put it, …

                Sin entered into the world
                when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
                The serpent/devil had enticed them through subtlety.
                Genesis 3:1

                Keeping in mind,
                John 3:16,17
                ponder this:
                “For the wages of sin is death;
                but the gift of God is eternal
                life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
                Romans 6:23

                I hope this helps.

                Salamat.

              • “That begs the question: Salvation by austerity for what?

                To me, this is not a satisfactory answer because it does not address the question. I was not asking WHY. I was asking WHAT. WHAT are we being saved from?”

                edgar,

                So, that should’ve read “Salvation by austerity from what?”

                And I agree that needs a totally different answer–not the punishment and rewards.

                To give a full answer you have to define what salvation means, and that’s soteriology–https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology

                It becomes a comparative game, ie.

                In Buddhism, salvation is from rebirth.

                In Jainism, salvation is from the delusion that we are separate.

                In Christianity, salvation is from death, so eternal life.

                In Hindu, salvation is closeness to Brahman.

                In Islam, salvation is living the good life in heaven.

                In Judaism, salvation is atonement.

                In Native American spirituality, salvation is balance, ie. because you are part of a bigger whole.

                (Now I’m just quickly summarizing here, you can write books and books for each)

                So back to edgar‘s salvation for from what?

                To me, the Sramanic (I’m including Buddhism here, he was a Jain drop-out but he still comes close), Hindu (though in practice it’s harder to ascertain, ie. caste system, etc.) and Native beliefs, all come the closest to a much deeper idea of salvation.

                I had the pleasure of meeting a WWII Navajo code talker, Marine, awhile back and the way he described the Navajo language blew my mind. And if language represents world view, theirs was the most sophisticated I’ve ever come across.

                I met Philippine witch-doctors as well, indigenous, Muslim, secular & Christian, who apart from their skin deep differences, actually espoused a very similar (uniform) view if you scratch deeper. Like Native Americans, they played a lot with smoke and other stuff, but the concept of balance was strikingly similar.

                When I compare the above to the Abrahamic faiths from the Mid-East, there’s a big chunk lost in their idea of salvation. Many, especially Muslims (but also a bunch of Catholics in the Philippines), focus only on rewards and punishment.

                But when comparing Judaism, Christianity & Islam, the closest that comes to the Sramanic idea of salvation is in Jesus’ teachings. The Prophet’s last “Farewell” speech is the closest that comes to Jesus’ teachings (but it’s still far off). And Judaism, salvation’s not really there, the religion itself seems to just keep a people together (which it has, very successfully at that).

                So there’s this bankruptcy, when speaking of salvation in the Abrahamic faiths. The irony is most in these faiths don’t see it. So they speak of “salvation by faith” and “salvation by works”, as if these were the two only concepts of salvation. Salvation by faith and by works are both empty concepts unless one puts some skin in the game–that’s austerity.

                But if you look hard enough at the above list of salvations, all faiths can be re-focused towards the Sramanic idea of salvation. People have done this in the past, and we have a sure way of identifying who endeavored to re-focus towards the Sramanic, the biggest give-away is their penchant for the non-material.

                So if you simply recalibrate your idea of salvation, it shouldn’t matter if you stay with the religion you’re with now, transfer to another one better, or do away with religion altogether, whatever your choice, just live austerely.

                Salvation for from what, you say? My answer is from Ourselves–in the now.

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                LCpl_X,

                Thank you. That is a much, much better answer: salvation from ourselves in the Now.

                It still begs the question though: Why do we need to save ourselves from ourselves?

                I am not being obtuse.

                The words “save” and “salvation” are premised on a belief, an assumption. That belief is that we are in a certain initial state from which we must change… in order to be saved.

                That certain state can be described as an absence or the presence of something in our lives.

                If absence, it is often said that we do not possess certain values which we must acquire.

                If presence, it is often said that we are born in a state of sin from which we must be redeemed.

                Whole philosophies and cosmologies have been built because of that underlying assumption.

                My question then is: What happens if we discard that initial supposition? What happens if we ditch the paradigm of salvation?

                It seems to me that methods or solutions, like sramana and religions, are being proposed to a problem that may not in fact exist.

                And the irony is: the solutions become the problem.
                *****

              • Bert says:

                Ohhh, horror of horrors, I am going to die then because I don’t subscribe to John 3.16,17 while you, 17Sharp, will have eternal life?

                But, tell me, why would you want to live forever? Ain’t that going to be boring eventually? I mean, what would you be doing all those times, if you would just be kind enough to give me some info, that I may be enticed to be saved, too. Otherwise I would just be inclined to think that all these are pure speculations because you know I don’t want to live forever if I’m going to be bored forever.

                Just an afterthought; do you know why I don’t subscribe to John? Here’s why:

                “John 3:16
                For God so loved the world, that
                he gave his only begotten Son, that
                whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
                but have everlasting life.

                John 3:17
                For God sent not his Son into
                the world to condemn the world; but
                that the world through him might be
                saved.”

                God sent his son into the world, to save the world. That’s thousands of years ago. The world is still the same, if not worse. The Son failed. And so the Father.

                But that’s just me.

              • And the irony is: the solutions become the problem.

                I agree with you on this, edgar— I totally see your point. I think I have a pretty good answer to your question, but this is unmapped territory for me (thanks for nudging me here), so let me see if I can hammer out some thoughts on this.

                Joe, can I write an article on this, off the cuff, title will probably be “On Skepticism, Cynicism and Solipsism (and why the Philippines should remain within the boundaries of salvation… just a different kind, but better)”

                Let me sleep on this a few nights, edgar. Again, thanks for the nudge.

              • Joe America says:

                Absolutely, do write it. I’m sure it would generate a robust discussion.

              • i7sharp says:

                @Bert
                x-
                … you know I don’t want to live forever if I’m going to be bored forever.
                -x
                ———

                Bert,
                By that comment, you are probably now more than a “10” or a “Master” in Joe America’s book.

                Knighthood is in the offing?

                Joe, what say you?

              • Bert says:

                “@Bert
                x-
                … you know I don’t want to live forever if I’m going to be bored forever.
                -x
                ———

                Bert,
                By that comment, you are probably now more than a “10” or a “Master” …”

                %%%%%%%%%%

                i7sharp,

                There are more valuable matters in my comment worth responding to and yet you opted for the loose change, why is that? In Internal Revenue parlance they called that tax evasion because, although the moral high ground to do is to pay the correct amount, the payer would rather choose the easy way out, the path of less resistance if you may, if you can get my drift.

                But that’s your choice so what can I do?

                Anyway, just to oblige you, let me ask you another loose change of a question:

                Do you want to live a boring life forever?

              • i7sharp says:

                @Bert
                “Anyway, just to oblige you, let me ask you another loose change of a question:

                Do you want to live a boring life forever?”
                ——-

                Bert,
                I will look at it as “a gold nugget of a question.”
                Somewhat akin to looking at “problems” as “opportunities.”

                btw,
                Someone has said that he was so busy if a problem pops up today, it would be at least a week before he could worry about it.
                As for me, am too busy to be bored.

                Vicissitudes (hmmm, ..it is not often I get to use this word) in life have their purpose.

                As you may know by now, I like using codes.
                Let me share this one:
                “ciaj”
                “Count it all joy.”
                http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jas&c=1&v=2&t=KJV#comm/2
                I just might shorten this to
                http://j.mp/i7-ciaj – unless one beats me to it.

                I hope and pray I am “saved” and will have eternal life and be kept busy in the new earth and new heavens that Jesus Christ has said He will make.
                Can I tell joke?
                I imagine myself being assigned to 42,029 universes (one for every barangay I care about).
                That would keep me soooo busy I would not have time to be bored (even I wanted to)

                Why not repent and be saved and adopt at least one barangay so you can be assigned to rule at least one universe.

                I (sincerely) hope this helps.

                Salamat.

                .

              • Bert says:

                “I hope and pray I am “saved” and will have eternal life and be kept busy in the new earth and new heavens that Jesus Christ has said He will make.”—i7sharp

                I wish you the best, i7sharp. And that’s coming from the heart.

              • Ham says:

                @Corporal Lance

                Fascinating, Have you ever recorded your views for posterity? Eagerly awaiting your post “On Skepticism, Cynicism and Solipsism”.

        • Joe America says:

          Well, I think the admission price is a little steep, myself. But I otherwise think the church would be a booming success, and you’d likely get rich in the end. ps, I like your description of diving down the rabbit hole. I usually don’t click on links that don’t have an explanation of what they are about.

    • Joe America says:

      On what point? It is a multidimensional comment from LC that covers Paine vs Rizal, faith, the occult and other topics. What’s the specific issue you want to explore? My comment pertains to the shortcomings of organizations, and why I don’t belong to any. It also suggests that no faith really has yet discovered humility.

      • “that no faith really has yet discovered humility.”

        Hence my mandatory initial rite of passage, Joe. It already takes huge balls to assume one knows the Truth, but to preach it to people in front of a crowd, takes bigger balls. Hence before anyone is given license to preach, he should have to undergo self-castration (and for effect, to do it with only a spoon… maybe a fork also).

        Before Joel Osteen went up to the pulpit a few years back, the crowd should’ve demanded and asked, are you with testicles?!!! (are you of humility?) That simple, minimum, of qualifications would weed out many less than serious spokespersons for God. St. Origen is the standard.

      • i7sharp says:

        @Joe America to me:
        “On what point? It is a multidimensional comment from LC that covers Paine vs Rizal, faith, the occult and other topics. What’s the specific issue you want to explore? My comment pertains to the shortcomings of organizations, and why I don’t belong to any. It also suggests that no faith really has yet discovered humility.”
        ——-

        1.
        “On what point?”
        On this point, on this specific issue of which you had written:
        “If you think your faith is the best, obviously it is not, for it sows division rather than heals.”

        2.
        “… no faith has yet discovered humility”
        JoeAm, what comes closest to your liking?
        For all we know, you are more serious about the Zoroastrian faith than of Lutheranism. Can you provide more light on this?

        3.
        Now that you are famous – “thanks” to PNoy – and given the adulation from all directions, you can, alas!, easily start a cult.

        • Joe America says:

          A religion that claims it is best or the true calling is saying that all other religions are not honest, not real. That’s divisive. It is a simple idea and explains everything from ISIS to INC.

          If you think I am serious about the Zoroastrian faith, then I’d suggest you work on comprehending satire and idea-play. I don’t talk boring talk, sorry. There is no more light to shine than that.

          The church that comes closest to true faith in my book is the First AME (African Methodist Episcopal) Church of South Los Angeles. This is a poor, crime-laced, predominantly black area of the city. Go to a service there, relax, and be prepared to meet Jesus Himself.

          • i7sharp says:

            @Joe America
            “Go to a service there [at First AME], relax, and be prepared to meet Jesus Himself.”
            ——-

            Jesus Himself said,
            “I am the way, the truth, and the life:
            no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

            What do you think of the religion that takes Christ seriously?

            btw,
            http://famechurch.org/about.html

            Salamat

            • That’s from John again.

              AD 200, Clement of Alexandria noted that John’s gospel was a “spiritual gospel”, distinct from the Synoptics– “biographical”.

              Quotation marks do not appear in the original Hebrew or Greek of these gospels (I thought you were a King James fan), but here is the longer exchange, and you tell us if it’s talking about the Holy Trinity or simply echoing Baruch Spinoza’s concept of God (and that of the Buddhas’ & the Jains’),

              John Chapter 14

              5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

              6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

              7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

              8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

              9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

              10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

              11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

              12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

              13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

              14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

              15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

              16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

              17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

              18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

              19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

              20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

              Gospel of Thomas,

              108. Jesus said, “Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him.”

              In context, it’s not necessarily the Holy Trinity or salvation by faith (Paul’s), it’s way deeper than that. Of course, you can interpret it according to Paul’s, but too much is at stake to make that miserable mistake. Dig deeper.

              • Oh yeah, punctuation marks, separation of words and lower case letters also came way after. So keep that in mind.

              • i7sharp says:

                LCpl_X,

                This site,
                http://j.mp/rp-kjv
                is by no means authoritative but, discerning where you are coming from, I am sure you will find plenty in it to disagree with.

                In the site, you will find links such as to this one:
                “Majestic Legacy”
                http://www.preservedwords.com/legacy.htm

                Now, tell us what you want removed from, or added to, the KJV?

                When do you think you can have YOUR bible published?
                Or is there one already?

                I probably won’t have time to send any comment in the next few hours.
                (Not that people are waiting with bated breath. )

                Salamat.

              • Interpretations are like assholes… everybody’s got one–the trick is to make sure you’re not just copying someone else’s interpretation blind, or at the very least vet it to ensure the interpretation is solid.

                Paul’s is not–he came much later, he came up with his own origin story (Road to Damascus) then largely made up his own interpretation of Christ. So care should be taken to mind how much of Paul’s you’re reading into these Gospels (then match it with austerity, again, the only idea Jesus stressed– I bolded line 11. because there’s a big ‘OR’ there, as in ‘you can do this’ or ‘you can do that’).

                Here’s Thomas Jefferson’s Bible, in which he just culled everything magical, and what remained is Jesus’ teachings–guess what is missing?

                http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/

              • Joe America says:

                You remind me of Thomas Jefferson with your thirst for understanding and wide range of readings. Can you imagine what Jefferson would have done with the internet? Wow.

                What is missing? The introduction does not say. Christ’s rising?

              • Now, tell us what you want removed from, or added to, the KJV?

                That’s been done for us by the scribes of long ago, who pretty much did the same as Thomas Jefferson– at least Jefferson was forthright with his redactions, and clearly explained where and what and why he took out.

                1 John 5:7 ; John 8:7 (basically that whole story) ; John 5:4 we know were added more recently, and that’s largely because the old manuscripts which did not contain these are present.

                The redactions early on and additions (before Constantine), are more difficult to prove, but the best litmus test is Jesus’ stance on austerity. For example, why would Jesus make a big deal about eating pork when his mentor (“cousin” I’m sure was more for effect) was the very 1st ‘Naked and Afraid’ star (though I ‘m sure John the Baptist wasn’t afraid).

                Wouldn’t the more appropriate answer to the pork issue been, just go Vegan, it’s cheaper and healthier for you. There’s plenty of other such examples strewn through out the Gospels, anachronistic is the word (doesn’t quite fit, must’ve been added later).

                So your control would be austerity. When you read every passage, and it diverges from austerity, then render it suspect.

                My point is re your “removed from” and “added to” is, that’s already been done. The question is how to interpret Jesus’ teachings, message, in spite of this–the answer is the control, and that’s austerity.

              • i7sharp says:

                @LCpl_X
                “My point is re your “removed from” and “added to” is, that’s already been done. The question is how to interpret Jesus’ teachings, message, in spite of this–the answer is the control, and that’s austerity.”

                Sorry, LCpl, I don’t quite follow you.

                Are you saying the KJV is perfect – or at least complete because there is nothing to remove from it or add to it?

                Regarding austerity, if austerity saves what does one need Jesus for?

                Salamat.

              • Are you saying the KJV is perfect – or at least complete because there is nothing to remove from it or add to it?

                No.

                I’m saying the assumption should be when reading these Gospels (KJV or not) is that, everything they wanted to remove and everything they wanted to add had already been done before Constantine demanded Christendom consolidated.

                Regarding austerity, if austerity saves what does one need Jesus for?

                He practiced austerity.

              • Thanks, Joe. All the Founding Fathers would have a field day with the internet. But my issue with Jefferson when reading this redacted version (his own personal work, not for public consumption), is one of regret, he felt exactly like Paine about religion, he left Paine out in the cold. Franklin felt the same, both these guys when a buddy needed them most, blue falconed Paine.

                Can you imagine if these three big shots teamed up on the issue of religion that early on, what America would look like? Manifest Destiny? slavery? What if…

                What is missing?

                “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus’ resurrection are also absent. http://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/

            • Joe America says:

              I think the Christian religion, as faith, is as good as it’s ability to instill good in its membership. I think the Christian religion, as organization, is a place of man’s inconsistencies and flaws, and is best measured by its humility and ability to welcome people who can practice the faith as idealized in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t think INC takes Jesus seriously.

              • i7sharp says:

                @Joe America,
                “I don’t think INC takes Jesus seriously.”
                ——-

                Do you take Jesus Christ seriously?
                Do you believe He is God and is the only One who can save you?

                Salamat.

              • Joe America says:

                I believe Jesus was a teacher. I take his teachings seriously and wish others would do so as well. It would be a much kinder planet. Whether He traveled a celestial wormhole to join with His Father is beyond me, and I accept there are mysteries that permit the spirit to enrich itself in wonder. I further think we need to define “saved”. If it means meeting some faith’s definition of what is required to get to heaven, I’d say the proponents of that faith are men and know no more about it than I do, and “saved” goes into the bucket of unknowables that fill the mystery box. “Saved” to me means finding principles to live by that are personally enriching and kind to others. I am saved, on those terms, at about an 86% level of competence. I still make mistakes and still have room to grow. I don’t require forgiveness from anybody as one of the principles of my salvation is accountability to self. If God knows or cares about these matters is wholly unknowable, so I don’t worry too much about it.

              • i7sharp says:

                @Joe America
                “I believe Jesus was a teacher. I take his teachings seriously and wish others would do so as well.”
                ——-

                https://joeam.com/2015/08/28/listening-for-dummies/#comment-133393
                x-
                Jesus Himself said,
                “I am the way, the truth, and the life:
                no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
                -x

                Joe, how seriously do you take this teaching/statement?

                Salamat.

              • Joe America says:

                I’m done here, Socrates. If you have a statement to make, please make it. You are like the cowboy herding cattle from the back of a horse, and look at me as a cow. Put yourself on the line, not me.

  17. One of the biggest factors for my continued support of this blog and Joe is the healthy level of sarcasm in some of his posts. They never come off as obnoxious either, except for maybe if you’re a typical Filipino. That’s just something I can’t get in my everyday life.

    Thanks Joe!

  18. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    These 40-percenters will forever be with the Filipinos. The anti-40-percenters, anti-Binays and all other antis when they sit in those elected office they become 40-percenters.

    These 40-percenters are your usual suspects, Brown-Skin-colored Filipinos U.P. Graduates.

    The only honest inhabitants of the Philippines that has never been touched by controversies, bribery and corruptions are:
    1. The Mestizo Ruling Class
    2. Ex-colonist Mestizos
    3. Those defeated colonists
    4. Spabnish blood

    They are the most honest. The second honest, half-honest and half-corrupt are:
    1. Chinese Lima Hong, the discoverer of the Philippines (Magellan was the 2nd discoverer)
    2. Tiu. Hated but never defeated. Currently he, his family, his relatives are harassed by brown-skin Trillanes for presenting authentic original Land Title purportedly by Binay. “Harassment” is alient to Filipino lingo. Can never happen in the 1stWorld but got a stamp of approval by Filipinos.
    3. Asian-Indian businessmen.
    4. Of course, sorry to tell you this folks, The Chinese in General.

    The 40-percenters, dirty politics, muggings, kidnappings are monopoligized by brown-skin Filipinos.

    I thank the Colonist Spaniards for inculcating COLONIAL MENTALITY. Colonial Mentality is good. The carriers of Colonial Mentality, The Spaniards, are THE MOST HONEST IN THE PHILIPPINES. No matter how they slice and dice it, THEY ARE HONEST …..

    …. OR, IS INQUIRER AND U.P.-RUN PHILIPPINE MEDIA INCLUDING PCIJ ARE AFRAID OF THEM. So take your pick. Brown-skin Filipinos or the Mestizo class? Colonial Mentality versus Filipino Mentality? U.P. or non-U.P.?

    • mercedes santos says:

      Mariano:

      I belong to the Limahong clan, except that the chinese can’t tell whether he was a Lim, an Ah or an Ong ☺

      • Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

        “The Philippine assertion of sovereignty over the Spratly Islands began in May 1956, when Tomas Cloma, owner of a Philippine fishing vessel company, and director of the Philippine Maritime Institute, declared the founding of the new municipality called “Kalayaan” (English: Freedom).” – WIKIPEDIA

        Thus, Philippines owned Spratleys becaue it was discovered FIRST by a Filipino.

        Lima Hong was trading with Filipinos before Magellan. Therefore, Lima Hong discovered Philippines. Since Lima Hong was a Chinese, by using Tomas Cloma principle, China owned the Philippines. Map or no Map.

        Please do not tell China. They might use Tomas Cloma principle.

    • Johnny Lin says:

      The Chinese in General.

      Only few of them remain residing in that old Spanish edifice in Blumentritt, the rest filled up the cemetery behind.

      He he he!

    • I had the privilege of attending a friend’s recent naturalization ceremony 6 months ago, and there was a recently naturalized Chinese guy, who was one of the folks running the Republican voter registration table.

      And on his name tag (“Hello, my name is…”) read Washington. So another woman asked him how that happened, he said he changed it to Americanize his name–easy to pronounce.

      The woman was so impressed, commented on how patriotic he was, and asked, what was your Chinese name before you changed it, after naturalizing? It was Tsing Tong Wah.

      LOL!

    • Joe America says:

      The driving forces for the three groups differ. Let me call them the Westerners, the Easterners, and the Real Filipinos. The Westerners obey the rule of law, or principles, or ethics and operate under the delusion that people are orderly and good. The Easterners obey the rule of greed and will eat anything with four legs but the dining room chair (old joke told to me by Japanese banker). The Real Filipinos just live as life is handed to them, and take the rest.

  19. Johnny Lin says:

    LISTEN YOU DUMMIES!

    Catholics- Go to the Streets Picket Commonwealth Avenue in front of INC

    INC followers don’t respect your livelihood picketing along EDSA

    So be it, INC started the religious war

    It’s in the Bible
    Eye for an Eye!

  20. Mariano Renato Pacifico says:

    ” “With his solid reputation in both his public and his private lives, his long years of public service, and history’s judgment of him being at stake, he should be granted bail,” wrote Associate Justice Lucas Bersamin. ”

    Lucas Bersamin spent his underbgraduate in University of the Philippines. Appointed to the bench by Cory Aquino. Appointed by Arroyo.

    UP + Cory + Arroyo. Odd man out is Arroyo. Why there was an immediate die down of the furor? Why there is no one label Bersamin a Arroyo lackey? Read this paragraph again. The clue is there.

    In any Philippine controversy, there is only one school that is a common denominator.

  21. Johnny Lin says:

    Title of this Thread
    Learning for Dummies

    Indeed we are! University of Tennessee professors changed the use of correct gender English. No more using, “he, she, his, him, her”. Just use “Xe, Zir, Xyr” to avoid offending the marginalized.

    True, Google it!

    “With zir solid reputation in both zir public and zir private lives,zir long years of public service, and history of xyr being at stake, xe should be granted bail”, wrote Associate Justice Lucas Bersamin.

    Just translated what MRP wrote above to the new form of “agender” English being recommended by professors from the Confederate of Tennessee to differentiate them from the Yankees, yet in alignment with the Rainbow Republic of San Francisco.

    Joeam has to learn writing zir blog in “agender” English for our learning process.

    Viva Vice Abunda!

    • Joe America says:

      Hahahaha, so many comedians today . . .

      • Johnny Lin says:

        You don’t like comedians
        About gangsters

        Mafia or Cartel?

        Anthony Taberna’s newly opened Cafe was strafed with bullets in the early morning.
        Taberna’s himself claimed he is not sure if the incident was related to the current imbroglio in his church INC.

        Manalo Cartel flexing its muscle in different directions.
        DeLima DOJ
        Tolentino EDSA
        Taberna’s Media Cafe
        Who is next?

        • Joe America says:

          I love comedians, in the main. I think INC is not endearing itself to those of other faiths. They are what I mean with organized religions seem to me not to follow the teachings of Jesus.

          • caliphman says:

            Well thats to be expected. INC teaching is Jesus was just a man and not a deity. Moreever, the church believes Felix Manalo,the founder, was an angel and Messenger of God, outranking Jesus.

            • Joe America says:

              Sent you an e-mail and blog draft.

            • “Well thats to be expected. INC teaching is Jesus was just a man and not a deity. Moreever, the church believes Felix Manalo, the founder, was an angel and Messenger of God, outranking Jesus.”

              Thanks, caliphman, I’ve always thought Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) was similar to the Anglican Church or Lutheran–they just wanted out of the Catholic Church. This is Twilight Zone stuff–just goes to show you that there’s millions of suckers born every minute.

              • Joe America says:

                Felix sounds like Joseph Smith, reborn. He missed the polygamy though.

              • chempo says:

                “Be not too hasty to trust or admire the teachers of morality;
                they discourse like angels but they live like men.” Dr Samuel Johnson.

              • caliphman says:

                I suppose thats what ISIS fanatics feel about people who believe in other than their own brand if Islam. Then again my atheist friends believe any religion is just for the naive and weakminded.

              • Felix sounds like Joseph Smith, reborn. He missed the polygamy though.

                Was it just me or does the Church of Latter Days Saints (LDS) have the best basketball courts in the Philippines (half court and full). INC & LDS do seem to have the best architects working for them.

              • Joe America says:

                LDS has wonderful courts but I never see anybody playing. I’d think they could do programs for local youths and it would be wonderful as an aid to their missionary work. INC also has good courts, never used, but their facilities are a bit smaller than LDS’s. Yes, both have huge construction budgets. They are generally the nicest facilities in the neighborhood.

  22. chempo says:

    It seems like Binay & Poe are LISTENING to INC?

    • Johnny Lin says:

      Grace Pie is a boba ride trapo by siding with INC with her announcement that leave the INC on their BELIEFS?

      Protests is against De Lima for doing her job.
      INC members who filed grievances or reported a crime of illegal detention against people who are high ranking INC officials.complainants sought go t help like any victims of crime.

      The main complainant is uncle of Anthony Tabernacle.
      BELIEF of INC is that criminal acts committed by their officials should not be investigated by De Lima. INC is telling De Lina not to help victims and Poe is defending this illogical principle she confuses this as religious BELIEFS. With Binay, he is a nut case. Hey will sell his soul to the devil.

      • Johnny Lin says:

        Bona fide trapo

      • Joe America says:

        I like “boba ride” because it rather seems like a fitting term, like a bozo riding a popular issue for self benefit rather than working for the benefit of the nation and respect of law. Indeed, these four characters, Binay, Poe, Escudero and Marcos all sound alike. Whining little complainers looking for headlines, with nothing to add at all to the core of the nation’s well-being. But maybe that’s just me . . .

        • Johnny Lin says:

          Joeam, Siri is intelligent, creating new words, boba ride Pie.
          Siri is a Xe from Tennessee

          Mar is the Read Deal with his announcement that “there are rules to be followed” when asked about his opinion on INC protest. Many members of INC protesters are realizing that they are the laughing stock for following their leaders blindly.

          He he he

        • Percival says:

          Roxas message to INC:
          “While all citizens have the right to be heard and to peaceful assembly, the exercise of these rights cannot impinge on the rights of others or cause inconvenience to anyone,… Let us remember that ours is a Rule of Law and not of men.”

          http://www.rappler.com/nation/104079-mar-roxas-inc-impinge-others-rights

          With this, Roxas will get my vote. One good outcome of this INC issue is that, it shows who among our politicians is/are really for the interest of the country. Binay, Escudero, Poe and Marcos have already shown their real intentions.

          • ofw from abu dhabi says:

            and in the social media.. netizens are pushing for sec delima to run as VP!

            • Johnny Lin says:

              To become President or Vice President is DESTINY!
              DE LIMa as Vice President might be the Providential effect of INC protests against her.

              One on one, will pit the Catholic votes against the INC candidate who will be seen as corrupt for buying INC votes.

              If DeLima loses she still has potential for any govt or International Court positions.
              If Mar wins she can reappoint her to DOJ or SC.

              Leila becomes antithesis to Poe that people will remember DE LIMA fought against INC for equality of victims in Philippine justice system while GRACE POE and Binay were trapos kissing the asses of INC officials disregarding the constitution of the Philippines.
              Netizens will make sure on social media that this INC issue will be kept alive during campaign.

              That will also free Robredo to run for re election or Senator. Vilma will run for Congress in new district of Lipa and Duterte will run against De Lima.

              VP with many candidates, De Lima, Escudero, Trillanes, Duterte, Marcos, Cayetano.
              De Lima will stand more than good winning chance. She will get women vote and all intelligent and lower class voters seeking equal justice.

              De Lima is new face among trapos endorsed by Catholic Bishops.
              Escudero is identified dirty trapo and greedy ingrate who destroyed Roxas.
              Trillanes will only get military votes.
              Duterte the Visayas votes with criminal instincts
              Marcos the Ilocanos votes of IlocosNorte only.
              Cayetano some youth votes.

        • NHerrera says:

          Joe: Indeed, these four characters, Binay, Poe, Escudero and Marcos all sound alike.

          Here is an exclusive political class and society — an etymology

          The mental wiring are fabricated in the same factory.

          Binay, Poe, Escudero, Marcos, INC

          B-PoEM INC

          BPEM INC

          And finally we have:

          BPEM, Inc

          It is an incorporated political society with an exclusive specialty — strategies and techniques of harassing investigators and police enforcers, not their accusers who provide the evidence. They also fabricate monobloc chairs with solid reputation of staying true when thrown to their harassers. They provide training on how to rain these chair-projectiles against the harassers for free.

          • Joe America says:

            You should file for a patent or registration of the idea as a commercial secret, then sell it to other politicians who do not have the ingenuity to run a positive campaign.

          • edgar lores says:

            *******
            Poe’s reaction here finally confirms her position in the category of trapo. Tra-poe.
            *****

            • Excellent play of words, sir edgar…my such sharp and quick wit minds we have here…bow

              • My!….I concede that a comma or exclamation point makes a meaning different or shows a grammatical error, syntax or whatever.

              • sonny says:

                An old joke about correct punctuation:

                A panda walks into a café. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.

                “Why?” asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

                “Well, I’m a panda,” he says. “Look it up.”

                The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. “Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.”

                (Sorry, I got time on my hands, Mary Grace. 🙂 )

              • Eats shoots and leaves – that’s what a panda does, the comma cost the people their lives…wahahaha….i laughed because it’s just a fable, a fiction story.

                No need to be sorry, sonny, you brightened my morning with this dose of laughter. Thanks a lot, may you have more time onyour hands. Please keep safe and well too, will you?

              • sonny says:

                Yay! Thank you, Mary Grace. Be well & safe, right back at you. (A co-teacher used to add: Be good. If you can’t be good, be discreet. (blush) )

                I needed that well-wish. Nowadays I find myself playing the golden-sunset role more often than I should: joints aching, plopping into chairs, letting out big sighs/groans, etc. My late dad went away a few months short of his 100th birthday. He used to say his plane was taxiing too long before take-off. He did leave quite a few joke-gems to chuckle to. I’m glad you n Joe liked the panda bit. I always remember the panda every time I eat labong & saluyot combo. 🙂

              • labong & saluyot combo…labong is bamboo shoot, right? Saluyot leaves, kinda like okra in texture….healthy stuff…then take turmeric concoction and you will surely get to reach 100 like your dad sans the stiffness, aches and groans (sans the adverse side effects, too)

                You will live long, by God’s Grace, same with sir Edgar, NHerrera, sonny, karl, joseph, gian,lance, Joe and the rest of you guys here for you all have more wisdom and with to share for the country. Be safe and well, all of you.

              • Joe America says:

                Thank you, and same to you, MG.

              • edgar lores says:

                *******
                Mary,

                You too. I am taking my greens… except broccoli, rutabagas and Brussel sprouts. Still can’t stand the stuff.
                *****

              • Greens for vitamin K, (for blood clotting capabilities) balance them with foods and supplements that are known to thin the blood. These include foods with high amounts of aspirin-like substances called salicylates, (Strawberries contain a very high amount of naturally occurring salicylates.) omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin E supplements, and foods with natural antibiotic properties.

                Herbs and spices high in salicylates include:
                • Curry powder
                • Cayenne pepper
                • Ginger
                • Paprika
                • Thyme
                • Cinnamon
                • Dill
                • Oregano
                • Turmeric
                • Licorice
                • Peppermint

              • Omega-3 fatty acids have received a lot of press lately because of their ability to lower cholesterol levels and make the blood less prone to clotting. Fish oil is usually high in omega-3s and can be ingested either through purchasing capsules or by eating fatty fish. Fish with high amounts of omega-3s include:
                • Anchovies
                • Salmon
                • Albacore tuna
                • Mackerel
                • Lake Trout
                • Herring

                Fruits high in salicylates include
                • Raisins
                • Prunes
                • Cherries
                • Cranberries
                • Blueberries
                • Grapes
                • Strawberries
                • Tangerines
                • Oranges
                Other substances high in salicylates:
                • Chewing gum
                • Honey
                • Peppermints
                • Vinegar
                • Wine
                • Cider

                These fruits and herbs can be excellent substitutes for aspirin and Warfarin (brand names Coumadin and Jantoven) is a prescription medication used to prevent harmful blood clots from forming or growing larger.

          • 1:56 am, our time…NH, are you based here in our very own ‘Pinas?…if so, do you ever sleep?

            And such a sharp mind, sharper than a double edged sword Heb 4:12 if I remember my bible reading right.

            I hope and pray that I may have your sharp mind when I reach your age. Stay safe and well, NH

            • Unless side effects of my maintenance meds cloud my reasoning or worse, make me irrational. I read somewhere that turmeric, (a ginger- like variation with deep orange color, a major ingredient in curry powder) is better than anti-cholesterol and anti-diabetis drugs and pain meds, better than even chemo, better than prozac, valium or Xanax and other anti-depression drugs, an excellent anti inflammatory supplement – and best of all, no side effects. Which reminds me, i need to take the concoction in a while. Got it from my aunt’s herbal garden when we went there to celebrate my grandma’s 95th birthday.

              • karl garcia says:

                never take turmeric and aspirin at the same time, I read it somewhere,.If symptoms persist, don’t insult your doctor, I mean consult your doctor.

              • karl, you’re so right. Thanks. I’ll take the turmeric and set aside the aspirin for days when we run out of the former. Turmeric when taken in large doses is not good, as in all other things – anything in excess is bad. Moderation is the key.

                Insulting the doctor, silently of course, is when I consult and then not comply. I do that when he says come back in 3 months and then forget all about it. It’s our health karl, not his so be a very compliant patient. Take care.

              • karl garcia says:

                Take care as well Mary.

  23. Johnny Lin says:

    INC is becoming big in Mexico.

    Mexicans follow the church of their drug lords. Word is spreading in Mexico that the most powerful Church in the Philippines is
    INC – IGLESIA eN CARTEL.

  24. So Joe are you planning to write an article on the INC? The issue is so big that it possible repercussions in the future.

  25. Johnny Lin says:

    Iglesia block voting will be criticized as another form of corruption among INC officials

    The politicians rumored to get INC vote will be portrayed as Vote buyer and corrupt.

    End of block voting by INC
    Their own members will. Ale sure that they are not portrayed as pious appearing religious hypocrites benefiting from selling votes.

  26. Bing Garcia says:

    Either way, we’re left with data that suggests Ashley Madison is a site where tens of millions of men write mail, chat, and spend money for women who aren’t there. Annalee Newitz

    • Johnny Lin says:

      Fiction!
      He he he!

    • karl garcia says:

      Extra marital includes imaginary? Of course they are chatting with reps.email rep, chat rep, name it there is a rep.

      Knowing is supposedly half the battle, but apparently truth is stranger than fiction.

  27. NHerrera says:

    Here is what former Supreme Court CJ Artemio V. Panganiban says in his opinion piece in the Philippine Daily Inquirer — “Focus on foundlings and orphans” (August 30th, 2015 01:02 AM)

    My thesis is simple: In our democracy, our 50 million voters should choose our highest officials, not our unelected and politically unaccountable though learned and wise Supreme Court justices.

    What is otherwise a reasonable opinion piece is ruined by that paragraph. Methinks Panganiban sounds more like the mouthpiece of Grace Poe than a former Supreme Court Chief Justice. Halatang halata.

    Panganiban seems to be steering the SC Justices at the SET or the full SC en banc from a point of law to the populist views. Have we come to this? Even a recent Justice of the Supreme Court, a Chief Justice no less, writing that very political singular paragraph. Shame on you Chief Justice.

    • Joe America says:

      He is sounding like political judges rationalizing the bail ruling on Enrile. Disappointing. I agree, for shame.

    • Bisdak says:

      I submit that Poe was a natural born filipino citizen prior to her becoming an american citizen. She became again a filipino citizen when she renounced her american citizenship (whether this renunciation was done properly per u.s. regulation is another story). Poe is therefore presumably a filipino citizen. She is definitely no longer a natural born filipino citizen. Only a natural born filipino citizen can be elected to a national office.

  28. NHerrera says:

    Randy David wrote an opinion column in the Philippine Daily Inquirer — Law, politics and the INC (August 30th, 2015 01:01 AM).

    We have probably discussed the nuances of INC’s recent behavior enough in this blog, but I like David’s phraseology in his opinion piece.

    Excerpts:
    ————————————————————
    I find their interpretation of religious freedom and church-state separation disturbing. I can’t blame them for believing that their church is under threat. Maybe it is, but certainly not from the state. I am aghast that lawyers like Senator Escudero, Vice President Jejomar Binay, and Ferdinand Topacio view this matter as an issue of religious freedom. To say so, I think, is to pander to people’s emotions.

    I am not a lawyer, and therefore my understanding of the Constitution could be limited. But, to me, religious freedom simply means the right to profess—or not to profess—a religious faith. It does not mean that actions taken in the name of one’s faith, or within the precincts of one’s church, are exempted from legal scrutiny or liability. Religious clerics who abuse their parishioners, particularly children, are answerable not only to the church but to the nation’s courts as well. Church officials who are charged by their own members with committing crimes cannot expect the state to back off while they deal with these charges within their organization.

    Church-state separation only means that the state is prohibited from establishing an official church or a state religion. Nothing in this doctrine says that these two domains—the church and the state—cannot peer into each other’s affairs. Churches do it all the time, criticizing state policies, telling governments to shape up, and condemning public officials for corruption and oppression. So, why can’t the state investigate and prosecute erring church officials, especially when the complaints are coming from the members themselves?
    ————————————————————

    • Joe America says:

      Thanks. you just saved me the effort of writing a blog.

    • Johnny Lin says:

      Tatlong tao na kampon ni Satanas.

      Kaya nga Topacio pangalan, Topac ang utak nung taong yun. Sinasamba ni Topacio Si Hitler at miembro siya ng Manalo Cartel na manggagantso ng abuloy ng tao.

      Si Binay ay Magnanakaw, tinuruan pa ang mga anak kung paano Magnakaw.

      Si Escudero ay abusado sa mga kaibigan at asawa lalo na pag Lasing. Mapagexploit siya ng tao para sa pansariling Asenso. Estudyante niya si Poe kaya si Grace ngayon pag nag salita walang common sense at pantrapong politiko.

      Nagsumbong ang Taong Iglesia sa gobyerno, nagpatulong sa Krimen ginawa sa kanya ng kapwa Iglesia.Trabaho ng gobyerno tulongan ang Tao pantay pantay. Gusto ng mga Iglesia na gumawa ng Krimen huwag silang pakialaman sa masamang Gawa.

      Simple lamang kaso kaya galit lahat ng nakakaintindi sa mga Iglesia dahil kabuhayan ng nagtrabahong mahirap naapektuhan ng kagaguhan nila.

      Dapat nga sunugin lahat ng kapilya ng Iglesia para makaganti sa abala sa mga taong nagtatrabaho.

    • Joe America says:

      Here’s an attorney’s warning to Senator Poe:

      Trixie Cruz-Angeles

      Dear Ms. Grace Poe: Sec. 3 of the Anti Graft and Corrupt Practices Act states:

      3. Corrupt practices of public officers.– In addition to acts or omissions of public officers already penalized by existing law, the following shall constitute corrupt practices of any public officer and are hereby declared to be unlawful:

      (a) persuading, inducing or influencing another public officer to perform an act constituting a violation of rules and regulations duly promulgated by competent authority or an offense in connection with the official duties of the latter, or allowing himself to be persuaded, induced or influenced to commit such violation or offense.

      Now could you repeat your spiel about how the Justice Secretary needs to focus on other cases and not to take cognizance of the case for serious illegal detention filed by one Isaias Samson, Jr?

    • chempo says:

      Let me tell you how level-head Singapore govt will re-act to this INC drama. I’m not saying we are the smart guys arround, but just to give a different perspective to how things are done back home.

      1. For this outrage at EDSA, the INC will be banned. Because it’s state security and people safety at risks. Don’t know if there is INC in Spore, if there is, I’m dead sure they are being closely monitored.
      2. For bloc vote — they are getting involved in politics and must register as a political party, or else they will be forced to close shop.
      3. For kidnaps, involvement in BOC — they will be properly investigated including checking into all banking accounts. If there are evidences, they will be charged like everybody else.

      Whilst on this topic, I’ll throw in 2 other thoughts of mine :

      a. Spore banned the Seventh Day Adventist — because members do not bear arms. We have mandatory national service and aint nobody gonna excuse themselves on this religious ground.

      b. Phils have a party list for security guards. For me, this is a serious matter. How can we allow a party rep with a following of hundreds of thousands of armed personnel. It’s a state security matter.

  29. Johnny Lin says:

    WAKE UP ORDINARY LABORERS

    Workers using EDSA should gather together and confront INC Rallyists. Throw bottles or stuff on those protesters so they will disperse and clear EDSA from their obstruction of the main business thoroughfare.

    Time to tell show these sects that earning a living is more important than their sour grapes.

    • That would surely remove the throwers from a higher moral ground and make the INC protesters victims instead of victimizer. Why not throw leaflets instead showing our opinions, a print out of Randy David’s column for today, perhaps?

      • Johnny Lin says:

        Bully against bully. Class fare war. Politically right does not count sometimes.

        High ground should be on the shoulders of authorities including candidates.

  30. from another person:
    https://iglesianicristo101.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/501/

    This is my personal take:
    Let’s say a cardinal got demoted and was sent to a retreat to reflect. This cardinal then went to the DOJ to file illegal detention charges against the council disciplining him because he was sent to the retreat. The DOJ accepts these charges without considering the context in which these charges we’re filed. This is why the INC is saying ‪#‎SeparationOfChurchAndState‬ . The government is being manipulated(?) by these errant people. The state is taking sides in an internal matter.

    If De Lima was just a lawyer working at the Department of Justice this would be no problem. If she followed the rules of court and allowed the city fiscal to handle the case– again no problem. If she did not make any other moves and publicize them in the media–again no problem. But she did none of those. And she is not just a lawyer. She just made it public: she will run for a public office. She is a politician at heart. She is not serving fealty to the law. Fealty to politics maybe.

    Most of the discussion with my non INC friends found in here:

    • Gian, Donnie Anoos expressed what I had in mind so well.

      INC’s ministers asked help, it would be heartless for the government not to heed their call for help. It seemed to these ministers that it cannot be solved internally as what they are complaining of are the group (Sanggunian?) itself, the source of the problem which is expected to solve it. I remember a report in PDI of a minister based in the US who refused to read the circular and chose to resign instead, he read his decision to the congregation who were in tears, men and women alike, while listening.

      • Johnny Lin says:

        Agree with you and Donnie

        When a citizen files a criminal complaint to an authority, the respond should be similar to all complainants regardless of age, race, color sex or religion.

        INC stretched the meaning of separation of church and state to protect their high ranking officials from getting embarrassed or legally charged in court. American bishops did the same to their priests hiding child abuse of erring priests proven a great blunder and they paid for it in the end.

        Similarly, INC officials will have to come clean later. Their strategy backfired and the entire INC church is being vilified for shortsightedness.

        Only 8 people are praying that INC controversy continues to be played in media.
        They are Justice Bersamin and 7 minions.

    • edgar lores says:

      *******
      Gian,

      I would say that the State is duty-bound to investigate any and all charges of illegal detention and abduction.

      There is precedent: Benhur Luy was detained in a retreat house owned by Napoles in Magallanes Village.

      Most religions practice a form of “shunning” which is social ostracism. At most it is prohibition against attending church functions. The alledged INC practice of house detention, confiscation of visas, and disconnection of communication telephone lines are in the extreme.

      If the conduct of followers border on heresy or apostasy, then excommunication would be the proper way to handle the matter.
      *****

      • @Edgar I agree The stand that I have heard is that if she had not given the appearance of pre judging the case the leadership would submit to the courts as it has done in the past.

        I think it would be helpfl to recall the history of Sec Delima and Gatdula.

        http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/682844/ca-rules-doj-violated-rights-of-ex-nbi-chief-gatdula-in-kidnapping-case

        I believe the trust isn’t there and a more nuanced and contextual response from the secretary was needed.

        Her personally handling the filling probably confirmed for some people their fear that she has pre judged the case.

        I believe this is the reason the leadership interprets most of her action as political in nature.

        Personally She has done a good job as DOJ Sec and I hope her integrity shines through to end this standoff.

    • Joe America says:

      Thanks for that perspective. One wonders why church leaders don’t simply make a press release or statement that explains things in those terms, rather than seek to undermine a legitimate agency of government by mob intimidation.

  31. Bing Garcia says:

    A former lawmaker, however, said politicians placating the INC should be condemned.

    Bello said that while he has had differences with De Lima on certain issues, the justice secretary is right in extending protection and judicial remedy to INC members who feel threatened by the INC hierarchy.

  32. Johnny Lin says:

    Look at the JERKS of INC

    INC spokesman Zabala wants the people to understand their situation on the nature of their protest. He said they only want their grievances to be heard.

    U N D E R S T A N D I N G!

    Does this Zabala know the meaning of Understanding?

    INC people know very well that blocking EDSA will aggravate the traffic situation there disrupting the lives of many workers. Does he not UNDERSTAND the meaning of disruption and inconvenience of working people? He gave an excuse that their meeting point was misinformed causing the dispersal of their people in many points of EDSA. Whether INC protesters met.at Shaw or at EDSA Shrine, the corridor is EDSA. The more INC gives silly excuses, the more people condemn their actions.

    If INC continue their protests tomorrow, working people have to retaliate against their petty complaint. Billions in business is lost for any added hours of EDSA traffic standstill.

    This Monday, INC will be in the stage of SABOTAGING Philippine economy if they will protest along EDSA? They should stage their massive protest in their own Philippine arena or inside their INC compound along Commonwealth. Besides EDSA shrine is a Catholic site.

    Enough is enough!

  33. Bing Garcia says:

    The chair of the Commission on Human Rights belied on Saturday claims by members of the Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) that the Department of Justice (DOJ) was violating the “separation of Church and State” doctrine by looking into the criminal complaints filed by expelled members against the religious sect’s leaders.

  34. NHerrera says:

    Sorry guys for deflating your ego — myself included — but the more we go about our ways in the Philippines, the more we see the trend: the women folk such as Ombudsman Morales, Sec De Lima, and Trixie Cruz-Angeles cited above by Joe, the more we see that they have the balls than the likes of Binay, Escudero, Topacio, and one forgettable fellow, Zabala.

    That is why, I still need to distinguish a she-xe from a he-xe. Sorry, Johnny Lin — I still need the he, she, or it pronoun; xe will not do that for me. Hahaha.

    • NHerrera says:

      It is a Sunday right? So we can do a little more belaboring, if Joe allows.

      INC has a TV channel which it uses to preach. I was watching this channel and was duly impressed. Their speakers invariably men-folk are dressed properly — mainly clean, fresh from the dry-cleaning barongs, as would be expected when talking about serious matters of religion. None of those ultra-modern attire and trimmings popular in some other shows.

      They, usually there are two preachers, have their bible in front of them. And they invariably use that magic phrase, “ang naka-sa-ad sa biblia ay …” and go on from there. Although, I may not agree with the starting premises from their bible, when they proceed from there, their logic is very good. They can indeed persuade starting from their “naka-sa-ad” premise.

      The great wonder now, is their (INC) logic during the recent mess that they themselves created shows none of the clarity their TV shows portray. Even granting their erroneous premise, their logic seems out of place. Their brains seems to have gone to their balls. For their sakes, I hope this is not headed to a schism that is not unlikely — especially from those residing abroad who still have functioning brains when it comes to religion.

      I feel good about one thing. The stock of Joe’s Blog has greatly increased. It will be incredible not to have INC readers here. So I am addressing this to them — for the sake of your religion, use your heads. Through your mass-efforts you can still steer your INC to the path worthy of your founder, Felix Manalo. Do not let a bunch of this Sangunian lead your religion to destruction. And don’t let this bunch profit by selling your religion via the so-called Bloc-Voting.

      AND ONE MORE THING. I believe sincerely, that if there is a heaven, a truly good moral man will go that heaven — he be an atheist, an INC member, a Muslim, a Catholic, etc. THE STATEMENT THAT SALVATION CAN COME ONLY TO THOSE FROM ONE RELIGION IS PURE CRAP, HOGWASH. Think carefully why that is being preached, especially by the present bunch of your INC Sangunian.

  35. In other news, it seems Boo Chanco has finally seen the light. He recently made a Facebook page and at least for now appears to have disowned Binay and Poe and seems to now be leaning towards Roxas. This is in the wake of Poe’s statements regarding the INC issue.

    • Joe America says:

      Ah, a recovering anti. Good to hear. Perhaps he finally listened.

    • NHerrera says:

      Capturing in a short paragraph the essential characters of Roxas, De Lima, Binay, Poe and Escudero; and yes, that sorry organization called religion, INC.

      Brings back Boo Chanco to my readings list again.

      Thanks, Mami Kawada Lover and Joe — I was about to search when your post came in with Boo’s words.

      • NHerrera says:

        AGAIN, THE POE CONUNDRUM, ON A SUNDAY

        Grace Poe is supposed to have taken Political Science in college. I don’t know if part of Pol-sci 101 is “Politics is addition” — embraced by that Master Trapo, Binay like a religion. But if it is I am pretty sure it must be a concept with qualifiers.

        Whatever, GP — in that recent INC-related statement — must have diminished her stock from the ABC socio-eco class and part of the D class. She has the rankings, she can afford to be principled. But she chose the gutter.

        She does not even know her elementary arithmetic. She could not have lost all the supposed 1.4m INC votes; the votes, from a practical sense, even before this recent brouhaha cannot be that solid. More so with this recent event which has hurt INC. Further, she could recover some ABC and some D votes she may have lost because of her lizard-like attachment to COMFORT BUDDY Escudero. I suggest she reviews her Arithmetic 101 aside from her Pol-sci 101. Her anxiety with David’s petition at SET must have sent her jitters scale up.

        • Joe America says:

          I’m beginning to lose hope that she has the depth of character, knowledge and intellect to become substantial as a domestic and international diplomat and top executive. It just may not be there. If I were Roxas, I’d drop her from the list. She is not loyal or circumspect and plays everything for attention.

          • NHerrera says:

            I share that view. As I said above, she is way up there in ranking — at least as of June surveys of SWS/PA and so she has the ratings capital to be balanced aka principled. As a financial man you know your Arithmetic 101. And know when to be principled and when to take another route. She obviously does not know the basic arithmetic needed for a CEO, much more a President. (Contrast that with P-noy — now, that guy knows his arithmetic.)

            When you put yourself besides the likes of Escudero, you do get your mind muddled, inexperienced as it already is. My suggestion is if it is not too late, is trade Escudero’s advice for one of Osmena’s. Problem is you have to be careful with Osmena too. There is a word you used about Osmena; I can’t remember now — wily (?) and you qualified that with the phrase “in the best sense of the word.”

          • ofw from abu dhabi says:

            sir.. maybe sec roxas could go for delima as VP.

  36. Johnny Lin says:

    Do not speak the name of the Lord in vain.

    It’s in the Bible as one of the Commandments
    INC followers have undergone Bible study lesson at a tender age.

    In their protest INC was using the name of Jesus unreasonably, unnecessary, I mitigating, unfounded principle of separation of church and state.
    INC blind followers staged their protest on the Lord’s day of rest inconveniencing people going to churches.

    What the govt and police could not do to disperse the crowd Jesus poured HIS wrath on their disrespect to day of family blessing.

    Rain poured like waterfall on their heads and body scampering to the malls where Holy Mass is celebrated every Sunday.
    The Lord works in Mysterious Ways!
    Many of INC blind followers will get sick, may die from pneumonia or other causes. They will learn their lessons for not following what they study from the Bible.

    Waste of time for Bible Study since childhood. maybe they thought by giving donation 3x a week to their church they have bribed Jesus the way INC used to get bribe from politicians during elections!

    Good for those INC bullies
    He He He!

    • NHerrera says:

      Well, they are taught salvation comes only from INC. So if that pneumonia catches, they will go straight to INC HEAVEN because they have not been excommunicated having followed hook, line and sinker the order to storm EDSA. I suspect that these are mostly the rather lowly, struggling INC fellows. The professional engineers, accountants, and other highly paid among them — and oh yes the Sangunian — are for sure just watching the TV news or teleradyos in the comfort of their homes and urging them to go on with their smartphones. The same thing all over again, the poor INC members are canon fodder to the orders of the higher officials, the Sangunian.

      Problem with the Sangunian is that they thought that with Uncle and Auntie Cojuangco; Binay, Escudero, Poe, and kinakapatid Marcos, defending INC’s Sangunian from investigation — in the guise of its distorted, twisted view of separation of church and state — were enough. They did not count on the downside by the many inconvenienced by the traffic jams, traffic already bad as it is without their help. Wrong move, INC. Iyan ba ang naka-saad sa inyong Biblia?

      And the heavy rains came from heaven. Truly there are mysterious works here. Take those medicine fellows — I hope the Sangunian did some forward planning and kind enough to provide.

  37. Nakisawsaw na din si Harry Roque sa INC at DOJ business. Dinagdagan pa ang gatong sa apoy sa EDSA.

    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/717806/binay-ally-harry-roque-tells-iglesia-ni-cristo-resist-govt-pressure

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