Why Filipinos fight Filipinos instead of building a great nation

Dog fight by Ang Kiukok of Davao

By JoeAm

Have you noticed? Filipinos are always making other Filipinos the enemy.

This struck me as I was reading DFA Secretary Locsin ripping on prior administrations for the mess in the West Philippine Sea . . . as if China had nothing to do with the mess.

A few days later, House Budget Committee Head Andaya was busy carping at the Senate for cutting thousands of scholarships from TESDA, among other reductions they imposed. Andaya, of course is the same guy who delivered the budget months late to the Senate and then demanded immediate approval so it could get to the President right away. THEN, in a masterstroke of unethical work, the House tacked some new items onto the budget AFTER the Bicameral Conference had reached agreement on it.

My friends, there it is, in all its simple splendor, the reason Filipinos are always fighting bitterly with one another rather than building a great nation.

Incompetence + denial of accountability = finger pointing and nastiness

Had the budget been prepared forthrightly and on time to address the President’s priorities rather than congressmen’s greed for local money, the matter would have gone better. The Senate could have done its review unrushed and with proper consultation with interested parties.

Andaya trying to blame the Senate for his own failure is typical, is it not? There is so much incompetence around when appointments are for favor rather than skill . . . and when voters elect boxers to write laws.

It’s like a chemistry experiment gone wrong. Filipinos keep putting the wrong elements together and the concoction keeps blowing up.

I have no idea what Secretary Locsin meant when he criticized other administrations for China being in the West Philippine Sea, but his remarks generated on-line criticisms of about every president since Cory Aquino, for whom he worked. Nice harmonious way to build a nation, eh?

Spread poison and complain when there is no harmony.

Frankly, it is just not a diplomatic . . . or competent . . . thing to be doing.

But it is common to see, and it generates resentments that last a lifetime.

Incompetence plus lack of accountability

It’s a poor way to build a nation.

There is only one solution to this.

Man up.

Do the job and accept the results. Own them.

What, you can’t do that?


155 Responses to “Why Filipinos fight Filipinos instead of building a great nation”
  1. arlene says:

    They blame others for their own mistakes and incompetence. As long as they are not the ones affected, let other people suffer and adjust, bear the blame etc. Good morning JoeAm.

  2. John McMahan says:

    Sounds just like good old USA. We’ll be there soon.

  3. In a country where no one wants to accept any form of accountability, you risk becoming scapegoat for everything if you admit wrong.

    Like those yellows whose masturbation on the job is responsible for Dengvaxia and measles. Or English-speaking elitists, and neoliberals.

    We could have a Senate Hearing on this also. Tar and feather the lowest ranking person who was stupid enough to get caught, by custom.

  4. I think it is more nuanced. If the seeming oppressor is deemed to be of lower power then we fight otherwise I believe you are right infighting or fighting between Filipinos is the default.

  5. edgar lores says:

    1. When looking at motives, I always go back to the Three Poisons of Buddhism: ignorance, greed, and anger.

    2. The quarrel between the House and the Senate over the budget is due to Greed. The reps want their share of the pork barrel.

    3. But the reps are incompetent because they are suffused with Ignorance. Sneaky behavior is witless.

    4. Consequently, both houses of Congress are embroiled in Anger.

    5. The formula then would be:

    Greed + Incompetence due to Ignorance + denial of accountability


    Anger as manifested by finger pointing and all-around nastiness

    6. Of course, we could add more to the formula. For example, the tendency to blame people or factors in the past. Which, by the way, we do in our frequent deconstruction of the Filipino psyche.

    6.1. However, we do it, not to shift blame, but to pinpoint the origins – or the oranges, as Trump would say – of our psychopathy.

    6.2. The shifting of blame to the past can be a subfactor in the “denial of accountability.”

    7. Another variable in the formula would be China, an external factor. China’s purported beneficence is driven by her Greed to become an economic and military superpower. Thus China can be represented as an exponentiation of Greed.

    8. The entire formula is a recipe for Chaos.

    • Cause or result, incompetence is everywhere.

      • Pablo says:

        Ignorance, greed & anger ?? Only?? Joe already mentioned incompetence and hinted at the incapacity to hold people accountable, but there is more.. And it certainly is not from this time, it has been here a long time. The best observations were in the website from http://www.getrealphilippines.com and if it were not written by a local, I would not link to it, but I think most items are spot-on.
        But, anger is not one of the issues. Angry people would do something. Angry people start a revolution. Angry people goto their leaders and hold them accountable. Angry people hold a rally. Angry people find each other and start an organisation. No angry people here. People lean back and watch their teleseries and gossip. I have tried to get some people into action. They should have been angry about some things. They know (or at least suspect) what the rootcauses are for their misery. But nobody gets angry.. And if nobody gets angry, then things won’t change. Maybe that is one of the attractive sides of living here: no surprises and laid-back. But it certainly does not help development of people and nation.

        • edgar lores says:

          Thanks. There are basically two types of anger: righteous and non-righteous.

          The description of righteous anger fits.

          But think of Duterte’s anger. It arises of ignorance. He cannot cope with the situation so he manifests anger (a) to mask his ignorance and (b) to impress people with his strength.

          • edgar lores says:

            1. Incompetence is an interesting factor.

            2. I suggested that incompetence is reducible to ignorance from the perspective of the Three Poisons. However, this requires greater clarification.

            3. What is incompetence? Basically, it is not doing one’s job well. This leads us to the question: What are the elements of doing a job well?

            4. I suggest there are three elements to competence:

            4.1. One must know the functions of the job
            4.2. One must have the knowledge to do the functions
            4.3. One must have the skills to apply the knowledge

            5. Thus, incompetence consists of:

            5.1. Not knowing one’s functions
            5.2. Not having the knowledge to do one’s functions
            5.3. Not having the skills to apply one’s knowledge

            6. The first two vectors definitely point to the poison of ignorance. The third, skills, is something different. It points, not to lack of mental knowhow, but to a lack of aptitude, of that combination of mental, physical, and personality traits to do the job.

            6.1. One may be low-skilled or high-skilled. This spells the difference between a coder and a programmer, and between a competent cook and a chef.

            7. There is another vector. Is it possible to possess all three elements of competence and still be incompetent? Irineo suggests there is: the laziness of the “senyorito.”

            7.1. Is laziness ignorance? In certain ways, it is, and in other ways, it is not.

            o Duterte not reading what he signs – like the motorcycle plates law — is ignorance of duty.

            o The delegation of primary work by a boss to an incompetent subordinate may be ignorance of responsibility or ignorance of the capabilities of the subordinate.

            o But not working or passing on work to other people may point to greed. A greed of passing the time more pleasantly, a greed of avoiding responsibility, a greed for relaxing and sleeping.

            8. The Three Poisons – and their Antidotes – sort of work like the primary colors.

            9. Most factors are both cause and effect. Duterte’s ignorance causes greater ignorance among the people. His anger causes greater anger.

        • I think the type of anger that comes into play is passive-aggressive resentments, maybe more subconscious than conscious, and not overt, expressed anger that is focused on the actions of government. You are correct, it is “no business of mine as it doesn’t change anything for me”. Well, until Junior comes home in a box because he associated with the wrong people at the wrong time.

          I don’t read GRP. I find the hostility, agenda, and arrogance way over the top, and I am banned anyway, from a past run-in with bennieboy.

  6. Sup says:

    Wonderful example ..Blame PCIJ while they are the ones NOT reporting income.
    “My children and I are being criticized, all about lawyering. What do they care about what happened to my law office?” he asked.

    the President said he was not required to report what he earned through his own sweat.

    ‘None of your business’

    “What we earned outside is none of your business, actually. That we have businesses and law firms, what a goddamn shit,” he said.

    Read more: https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1104189/duterte-slams-pcij-for-wealth-series#ixzz5kSsDmLtU

    Nature of Business Interest – refers to business interest whether as proprietor, investor, owner, partner, shareholder, officer, managing director, executive, creditor, lawyer, legal consultant or adviser, financial or business consultant, accountant, auditor and the like

    Click to access Instructions-SALN.pdf

  7. chemrock says:

    Thanks Joe, for allowing us To See Philippines In A Grain Of Sand.

  8. Why is incompetence and non-accountability so normal in the Philippines?

    I say it is the “senyorito” culture. A powerful person in the Philippines lets things be done by others from childhood onwards – maids, drivers, then maybe goons (Digong), secretaries and flunkies of the Bong Go kind.

    So Digong signs a law on motorcycle plates and hasn’t read it in detail..

    • ..while if the likes of PNoy and Roxas are close to the action in Zamboanga or during Yolanda, some people find it ridiculous.

      A true lord takes a helicopter with his flunkie. He blames incompetent and corrupt cops for his failed war against drugs.

      Being made responsible means you are not the boss. See Gian’s comment.

    • In business where profits are a tangible measure of success, when delegation becomes abdication, the manager usually fails. Leaders in government blame the opposition.

  9. helosardig says:

    One thing I must point out. If they had not voted the US based out then none of this would be a factor. Two of the senators on the Senate board who voted our the US based went to prison for life. Guess where they are now?! One is Mayor of Manila and the other was the senior Senate leader and is running for the Senate again. They aren’t in prison. This is what is WRONG with the Philippines. The people running the show are criminals and the Filipinos voted these “prisoners for life” into office. Are they blind?!

  10. 300 years of Spanish rule, 10 years of Japanese occupation and then 60 years an American colony have made the people immune to all wrong/s done by others. They almost expect to be victimized and dominated in one form or another.

    Everywhere we look we see a people who have sold themselves and others out and show no signs of stopping. The political dynasty families running the Philippines will never stop stealing and voters refuse to vote them out.

    • sonny says:

      “They almost expect to be victimized and dominated in one form or another.”

      It is good to not forget the 300 yrs, 10 years and 60 years of colonizing presence in the country. More important is not to forget what happened at the “physical” end of these foreign occupations. The Filipino people and society was left with nothing but literally only the shirts on their backs. True, the islands were gifted with rich natural resources at the end of WWII. The key elements of sustenance, organization, infrastructure, a bare essential sense of national unity were forcibly removed just by being a theater of conflict. I suggest even at this time of historical attenuation, that we did not recover from that extreme privation.

      • kasambahay says:

        “They almost expect to be victimized and dominated in one form or another.” people’s experience told them to expect less. expecting more will only lead to disappointments, they’ve been that path before, they’ve been promised, and gotten mirage.

        but there are those that dared! to put the wrongs into rights.

        brave men and women dared!

        • edgar lores says:

          That’s right. We are not our past. We can transcend it.

          • sonny says:

            This point is not lost on me, edgar. Our wholeness was assailed and the pieces are what we are starting from.

        • sonny says:

          As I said, cannot argue that brave men and women dared. I knew some and was close to a few who lost their lives trying. I do appreciate the reminder.

          Yet I must say that we have not recovered in important areas.

      • sonny says:

        Cannot argue on either account. Shouldn’t. Our destinations are similar.

        • kasambahay says:

          good and open discourse is always welcome, healthy even, yes? so long as we’re not killing each other, (I’m scared of blood!) let’s have discourse.

          good exercise for the brain yang discourse and may stave off dementia, may even create and open neural pathways too, cheers!

      • Pablo says:

        Yes, it fits. It is used as a reason for why we are where we are. But should it be used as an excuse??? If you have been in a difficult situation, it should make you stronger in the fight to get out. And we are now several generations down the line and all the halfway decent institutions left behind after colonialism have deteriorated to the point of insignificance in the path of greed and power.
        Generations have returned from often significant jobs abroad (immersion in different social systems) and still nothing changes.
        Philippines has (had) everything going for being a great society, but look where we are.
        The privileged are fighting each other and killing the poor, nobody trusts anybody, the leaders supposed to provide moral guidance keep silent and in the fight for survival, the crab mentality is king.
        Not a nice picture.
        And not a hope for the future.
        No surprise that still many people try to go abroad, but pity that the knowledge level has deteriorated to a level that Indians are much more in demand.

  11. popoy says:

    Which country is capable of this great humour?

    • popoy says:

      I think American politicians nevertheless and regardless manifest deep intelligence by their sense of humour,

      • popoy says:

        There was a poem posted here about PINOY HUMOUR, In infinite contrast Barry Goldwater showed his intelligent humour, turn to 41:41 in the quite long link below to get a piece of brilliance from Hubert Humphrey, There is humour, there are symptoms of intellect that demonstrate greatness in the conduct of civilized politics by US partisan politicians.

  12. popoy says:

    Relying on palpitating memory and not on searched internet links this is ask: who said that the past is water under the bridge and another chap said that you cannot go down the same river twice.

    Pinoy youth of decade 70s fought, got incarcerated and died for their HERE AND NOW. OFWs of many yesterdays and turbulent today are PROACTIVE and acclaimed modern heroes because of their dollar remittances. There are Filipinos, more than a few millions who don’t fret, agonise either on spilt milk or for clean drinking water they don’t even have; these Pinoys leave homes and families and affection in search anywhere for subsistence, for the good life of their families. They have no time, no brain for memories of centuries and decades of foreign domination, subtle but real subjugation.

    Wearing well-used polo barong, I remember in the cavernous hall of POEA by the EDSA while accomplishing pre-departure documents, a clean dressed provincial man approached me. “Sir, Puede po bang tulungan nyo ko pilapan ito? Nakalimutan ko po ang aking ball pen, eh.”

    Cautious that I am, I looked at the man, into his eyes and said Okay, okay. Unahin ko ito. Ano ang ngalan nyo? Ano address nyo? Anong trabaho nyo? Saan? May ticket na kayo, kailan ang alis nyo?
    I sat among the waiting applicants for their pre-travel papers and followed with my eyes the provincial man as he went to submit our papers for processing. He sat beside me as we waited for our names to be called. “Sir, ano pong trabaho nyo? “Teacher lang, lima ang anak ko. eh.” Our vibration was friendly, content, positive, proud, hopeful and mutual.

    That no read, no write, humble carpenter made my day. Oh yes, How did he got his job in Saudi? He said a Pinoy construction supervisor recruited him.

  13. In the context of the Philippines slowly trying to form its own social safety net with the Universal Healthcare Act, and the creation of the national housing department, and some moves to make a 4Ps law it is nice to see some data on what works against childhood poverty.


    • karlgarcia says:

      The Universal heath care(Medicare for all)was part of Micha’s arguments with LCX vis-a-vis the DODs budget of the subject that has a never ending story.

  14. kasambahay says:

    why do filipinos fight filipinos instead of building a great nation? even cats and dogs fight, humans more so. no great mystery if pinoys fight among themselves. building a great nation, porbida, where is the template? lol! pinoys always have problem with cooperation and they put their families first, the nation comes a far distant second.

    looks like pinoys missed the boat of building a great nation, and now china is building a province over. the slow boat to china has turned around.

    • Where is the template? There is none, but there are plenty of measurements of progress on economic and human endeavors, and the Philippines is going the wrong direction.

      • kasambahay says:

        going the wrong direction and following the direction of the rudderless one. our national compass has been corrupted and allowed to be corrupted still. moral compass, economic compass, political compass . . . maybe captain jack sparrow of the black pearl has the right compass after all, lol! thanks you, the society of honor.

        we know it’s the wrong direction pinas is heading, but. the pockets of discontent are showing contents sporadically, hesitantly at times. odds are, it’s gaining and gathering momentum.

        it’s difficult to keep the fire burning if the person/s task with burning and having given all there is to give, get burned. while others sit predatorily, watching and enjoying the scenery, until such a time . . .

        I just want a nation, not necessarily a great one. a proud nation able to protect its border, feed its citizens, mindful and conscious of its obligation to the past, the present and the future. a good neighbor of a nation and not one beholden to china through and through.

  15. karlgarcia says:

    Was bayanihan just really moving a house to another location with the help of the whole nieighborhod, the cynic would think that your neighbors were very happy to see that particular neighbor go, so it took a whole village to do the honors.

    Cynicism aside, after a disaster natural or man made, almost everybody donates and those who do not have so much give so much.
    The problem is we have a quirky culture one good one like bayanihan will be overshadowed by the ningas cogon quirk where you give all your goodness at the start, and when the candle stops burning, there would be no follow through.

  16. karlgarcia says:

    I never understood Francus s when he said values should not be thought.
    I was thinking that this is a nature versus nurture thing.
    Values can not be in our DNA, is it not?
    On this family first attitude of Pinoys.
    Tell me a place on this blue earth that is more concerned with National interests rather than interests of the family?

    • It isn’t a choice of one over the other. Family first is fine, but one’s family will be cared for better if the nation is healthy and productive. That calculation is what is missing in the Philippines, for way too many.

      • karlgarcia says:

        Thank you, I wanted to ask that and have it answered, what is missing here as stated earlier are ways to keep the fire burning. All we have are good intentions, with implementation only at the very beginning all efforts would always leasd you back to first base and never have a home run.

      • Karl did write about the barangay, the neighborhood. That is where it all starts.

        • karlgarcia says:

          Many many thanks.

          • https://qz.com/1027802/there-are-two-kinds-of-popularity-and-we-are-choosing-the-wrong-one

            ..“Most of us confuse the two types of popularity, and search for the wrong one,” says Prinstein.

            This wasn’t as much of a problem 30 years ago. Back then, it was just a phase. Adolescence would hit and teens suddenly became consumed with a desire to be noticed, accepted, and approved. (For more on the complicated neuroscience of teen brains, read this). Since status is easier to achieve than being likable, teenagers default to status-seeking (inspiring a canon of classic films, from Mean Girls and The Breakfast Club to Sixteen Candles and Ferris Bueller’s Day Off).

            As teens became adults, they realized that social capital came from connections—with other people and communities at large. After adolescence, we would revert back to caring mostly about likability..

            Could it be that some societies (Philippines) already were more like high schools even before social media came in?

            • karlgarcia says:

              Mean Girls was shown in 2004, the rest were 80s movies.

              I may add Somekind of Wonderful and Pretty in Pink where the Rich boys think that the not so rich girls are easy to get and are social climbers.

              Ferris Bueller who cut class with his buddy and a girl abd had the time of their lives and got a way with it, in the BC, they all got detention and they made the most out of it.

              Life is what you make it.

              • The article is about how social media is turning life into “high school” in so many places.

                In any case, the principal in your school knew that the dog always ate JVE’s homework.

    • https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/federal-council/history-of-the-federal-council/federal-charter-of-1291.html – who is being protected here, a nation (just being born back then), or three mountain valleys, three native tribes rejecting outside authority (over their cows and their mountains and all their sovereign natural resources including cheese), or family men wanting to make sure their work is not in vain and just raided by bandits high and low?

      1. In view of the troubled circumstances of this time, the people and communities of Uri, Schwyz and Nidwalden promise to assist each other by every means possible against one and all who may inflict on them violence or injustice within their valleys and without.

      2. Each community shall help the other with every counsel and favour and at its own expense in the event of any assault on persons or goods within and without the valleys and to this end have sworn a solemn oath to uphold this agreement in confirmation and renewal of a more ancient accord.

      every farmer in the Alps whether in Upper Bavaria, Switzerland oder Austria used to have a rifle to defend his farm, as plunderers were not uncommon in times of famine. Austria still allows landowners to have a rifle, in Bavaria gun clubs remain as folklore, while Swiss men who have served mandatory military service each have their rifle at home and know the code by which they are ordered to be at a certain place when the call is to defend the country..

      ..while China does not even have to invade the Philippines. They know that the attitude of the typical Filipino nowadays, unlike back in 1942, is “ikaw na lang” to their neighbors..

      ..and public services deteriorate in the Philippines because most don’t care, though finally water (for example) is something the collective has to take care of, make sure it is there. Most of what works is privatized (subdivisions, malls, schools) while public usually sucks.

      • karlgarcia says:

        “ikaw na lang”…. sounds very familiar hehe.

        • popoy says:

          Ang Pinas kong mahal, probinsiya na lang, eh.

          • karlgarcia says:

            The Pilipinas nating mahal will never be a province of any.

            • kasambahay says:

              sorry for being less optimistic. maybe being province of china is the best pinas can hope for under the present admin. pinas is fast on the heels of sri lanka, slotted in for the debt trap and could well be losing patrimonial asset as the recto bank to china.

              already sri lanka lost a fine harbor to china, having defaulted on loan repayments.

              with the way chinese loans are schemed, easily available with repayments being higher than usual, china’s build build build projects hiring mostly chinese workers who dont pay taxes year after year, the outlook is grim for pinas.

              if pinas defaulted on loan repayments and foreclose, china will take recto bank as collateral. china can continue taking on pinas’ other patrimonial assets if pinas defaulted yet again. and considering the many loans pinas has entered into, debt trap is likely outcome.

              bickering, fighting and arguing among ourselves, that we can handle. but being debt trapped to china and losing assets is not one for making pinas a great nation. that I cannot handle.

  17. popoy says:

    From an old file, came
    this plagiarized wannabe poetry:

    “This doomed land,

    this Armageddon of the planet,

    thIs island of the power-damned

    where the greeds

    had fed upon themselves

    until the greatest good

    became the greatest evil.

    For the land belonged

    to the power-damned.”


    “This doomed land, this Armageddon of the planet, this island of the power-damned where the greeds had fed upon themselves until the greatest good became the greatest evil. For the land belonged to the power-damned.”

    –Robert Ludlum, TREVAYNE, New York, Bantam Books, 1973, p. 445

    • popoy, Wiki says “Trevayne” is the only Ludlum book w/out “the” in the title. I’m a big fan of the Bourne series but have to admit don’t know other Ludlum books, as I do Tom Clancy books (before eventually settling in w/ Dick Couch and Dalton Fury books).

      “For the land belonged to the power-damned”.

      I’m really surprised that the Philippines doesn’t talk enough about rubber. Forget rice, forget sugar. the Philippines’ comparative advantage is in rubber production.

      Can you imagine the modern world w/out rubber ??? before the 1840s, before the discovery of vulcanisation, horse drawn carriages had wagon wheel protected by steel tire,

      Since Goodyear’s discovery, rubber has been the backbone of modern economy.

      The reason there are no direct flights from Asia to South America is precisely because of the rubber industry. 90% of the rubber used in the world used to come from Brazil (rubber comes from the Amazon originally), then a leaf blight wiped-out rubber trees ruining the source; fast-forward to now, 90% of rubber is now produced in Asia, and to protect Asian rubber, no South American flights directly to Asia.

      if AOC gets her way and the US pivots to her Green New Deal , rubber will still be extant and relevant to the modern economy (you can’t fly and land; haul trucks cross country; enjoy modern amenities w/ rubber). but oil and synthetic rubber (from oil) will be out.

      the biggest worry is another blight will wipe out rubber in a single swoop, its greatest weakness is the fact that all rubber trees are clones of each other, thus w/out variety. Google rubber varieties:

      “Currently, Hevea brasiliensis has been only one resource for commercial natural rubber production.

      Rubber tree, H. brasiliensis , commonly known as the Brazilian rubber tree is native to the Amazon River basin. Attempts to develop alternative sources of natural rubber have been made at various times and no fewer than eight botanical families, 300 genera and 2500 species have been found to produce natural rubber in their latex.

      Only two species, in addition to the rubber tree, are known to produce large amounts of rubber with high molecular weight: a shrub named guayule (Parthenium argentatum) and the Russian dandelion (Taraxacum koksaghyz). These plants were considered sufficiently promising as alternative rubber sources that several research programs have been conducted on these plants, especially during World War II.

      Hevea rubber has been an undeniably beneficial commodity for the past 100 years. The superior qualities of the natural elastomers produced by this tree have never been surpassed by any of the synthetic products.

      Parthenium argentatum (guayule) is an industrial crop, which is the best potential source of latex suitable for use in medical products, gloves etc., which does not cause allergic reactions in patients suffering from Type 1 latex allergy.

      The dandelion rubber will be tested for use in a variety of applications, but primarily for use in tires. Researchers hope the project will lead to the production of the country’s first dandelion rubber commercial facility in the next five years.

      By 2020, they hope the plant will be producing 60 million pounds of natural rubber. Other alternative rubber producing plants like lettuce (Lactuca serriola) and fig tree (Ficus bengalensis); have not yet been sufficiently studied to establish their usability.

      The ideal rubber-producing crop would be fast growing plant species that can grow in any type of land across the world. The major objective of this review was to provide the information about cultivation, genetics and breeding aspects of Hevea and also other natural rubber producing species for alternative source of latex production in the near future.

      Key words: Alternative rubber sources, biotechnology, breeding, Hevea brasiliensis, Parthenium argentatum, Taraxacum koksaghyz, Ficus bengalensis, Lactuca serriola.”

      the Philippines may not be so power-damned after all, popoy, they are in a prime position to produce rubber, just avoid monocropping and like no flights to Asia from South America, protect trees from infestations. the rubber industry is very fragile, but potentially very lucrative, even nation changing…

      what happens if a similar blight which destroyed rubber production in Brazil happens to Thailand, Vietnam & Indonesia??? 😉

      • here’s a great video w/ Dr. Katrina Cornish :

        “CHICAGO—Katrina Cornish, an internationally renowned expert on sustainable rubber sources, has joined startup hydroponic dandelion rubber firm American Sustainable Rubber Co. L.L.C. as a scientific adviser.

        ASR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Chicago-based United American Healthcare Corp., is devoted to indoor agriculture technology to create a domestic natural rubber source from the Taraxacum kok-saghyz (TKS) dandelion.

        Cornish currently is Ohio Research Scholar and Endowed Chair of Bio-Emergent Materials at The Ohio State University-Wooster. She also is CEO of her own company, EnergyEne Inc.

        In her current activities, Cornish leads a program on alternative rubber production concentrating on the TKS dandelion. Her research also includes bio-based fillers and development of feedstocks from agriculture and food processing wastes.”

        the Philippines used to be the master of rice production in Asia, why not become it again but for rubber, mastering the farm process (genetics & variety), factory as industrial material (production), then master the futures market in which rubber is traded as commodity to ensure not getting shafted by too-big-to-fail types.

        • here’s a video on Buckeye Gold (dandelion) rubber:

          • popoy says:

            LcpL Thanks for re Ludlum.

            This retort is yabang questions, where erroneous like faulty memories, they must be corrected. Why of all things RUBBER, thru links than original thoughts germane to the blog? Have anybody been to Talakag, Bukidnon and saw the rubber plantation of a personage VIP to and during Martial Law (indeed, what happened to it)? Been to Malaysia to visit a rubber plantation, saw the drip from a tree, saw big doormat-like pure rubber before they become tires or whatever? or been to Japan (on a UN family planning seminar) to visit the biggest rubber corporation (Okamoto) to see young female Japanese employees in quality control unit blowing Okamoto crown condoms to big multi-colored balloons to see if there are tiny holes in them? That the rubber tree has a hardest part breakable only by subjecting it to immersion to alternating extreme heat and cold conditions?

            Ah life in the blogs could be like rubber bands instead of plastic. Did JoeAm said Popoy is a riddler?

            • “Have anybody been to Talakag, Bukidnon and saw the rubber plantation of a personage VIP to and during Martial Law (indeed, what happened to it)?”

              If i am not mistaken, popoy , Del Monte pineapples are around the same area (while Dole is more towards south Mindanao).

              I don’t disagree with rubber as colonial bi-product, then plantations runned by the rich and/or political-landed class over there. but now, or when i was there mid-2000s, rubber trees are grown by mom & pop farm operations,

              i remember though their dilemma then was to cut down rubber trees for the more lucrative palm nuts. Not knowing palm nuts aren’t strategic plants (at least as far as America is concerned). there’s a huge disconnect between the folks that need rubber and those who grow it.

              there’s a bunch of substitutes for palm oil. rubber is rubber.

              In the triumvirate of plantation owner (farm) — rubber processing (factory) — speculators in futures market (profit) , the low- to no-skills folks will get trampled on. in rubber, these are the guys that tap for sap then transport to factories that turn agricultural product (the sap) into industrial commodity.

              the futures market is where, the bottom wrung of the triumvirate need to focus. Most of these guys are in Singapore (and Japan). how to beat speculators at their own game, is the name of the game.

              the market is the market, invisible hand and all, but something the Milk/dairy industry was able to do here back in the 80s, 90s was to make milk indispensable to the American diet. my point is why aren’t rubber farmers promoting their product.

              no one here really thinks about rubber because folks there (SE Asia) aren’t really actively marketing their stuff to folks here. similar to the dairy industry ‘s ad campaign (Got Milk?) is Cotton (the fabric of our lives).

              Like ‘It’s More FUN in the Philippines!’ there should be a Philippine rubber ad campaign, ie. “Where the rubber meets the road”, or specific to the condom industry (which there are none in the Philippines ironically) “Burn rubber!”.

              My point is the Philippines should start creating its own buzz for its own rubber. For example, why isn’t there a Filipino condom company??? pivot there first, then allow more farmers to decide, hey this rubber stuff might just be lucrative for me.

              then from condom, expand to medical rubber products, gloves, tubings, etc. etc. *** i know, i know, this kills my previous population control and nutrition idea , that NH was totally on-board for *** 😉

              the whole time rubber has to be sold and promoted as natural (like Cotton), opposite from oil by-products un-natural/baaaaaaaad, Oil is the enemy, have faith that under AOC the Green New Deal will gain traction,

              but even if rubber is just for local to regional market (East Asia/Australia), the mantra for farmers especially in Mindanao should be monocropping is the enemy!

              Rubber, coffee & cacao is your new https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) , if you notice chocolate and coffee consumption over here consumers, also in EU and Australia, we care where our coffee and chocolate are sourced, and about fair trade and stuff. Palm oil doesn’t have that same following,

              so ride on coffee & cacao’s popularity, plant them in between rubber, by doing so you’ll counter rubber’s long history of exploitation and subjugation. increase the value of that no-skill laborer from simply tapping rubber sap, to being a coffee and cacao expert. start talking about terroir.

              I saw banana trees thrive in the shade over there, so add bananas too! papayas are okay in shade. I’m sure if you can manage the canopy, you’ll be able to inter-crop fruitfully. What say you, popoy? 🙂 i’m not talking about Dole & Del Monte type operation, i’m talking about something Filipinos could benefit and make their very own.

              • Also, create demand by manufacturing scarcity, that’s what diamond and oil guys do similarly. the beauty of rubber trees is you don’t have to harvest, the sap will always be there, for like 30-40 years even ;

                if the market screws you over with a low price, don’t tap for sap.

                you’ll get taller trees, possibly healthier too (since you’re essentially bleeding when you tap).

                Another thing with rubber plantations, i got to walk thru an approximately 5 acre plantation there, old trees, i’d estimate planted in the 70s, is they are really beautiful, idyllic locations, so why not stick some cottages in between and run an AirBnB or some quiet resort type setting, some peace and quiet living.

                So, to future Robber Barrons , mix it up, have a big mango tree, narra tree , or tamarindo tree (from Arabic tamar for date; and hindi for India , so indian date) , make your plantation look idyllic so you can also run a no-frills cost-effective ‘huts in the trees’ type establishment.

                aside from a Filipino condom company , why not also a Vibram-type company focused on getting Filipinos to start hiking around their own country. a good way to alleviate traffic congestion too, start walking. my point, there’s a lot of uses for rubber.

                right now Thailand and Indonesia’s got it cornered, but the same way Samsung and LG (also Kia and Hyundai) was nationally supported by S. Korea, Philippine rubber too can be used as catapult by making Filipino rubber products in the Philippines by Filipinos.

                there’s an existing infrastructure there for rubber, it’s been moth-balled yeah, but it can be scaled up again, is my point.

              • Very auspicious!!! thanks, Ireneo. this is a great start!!!

                I ‘m not familiar with any rubber plantations in Luzon or the Visayas, just Mindanao. i’m assuming this is mostly Mindanao sourced rubber?

        • “That the rubber tree has a hardest part breakable only by subjecting it to immersion to alternating extreme heat and cold conditions?”


          it is considered a strategic plant; but because of lack of blight infestations thus far, cheap labor and consistent supply (aside from Brazil in the early 1900s losing its strangle hold of said crop + advent of synthetics since WWII) rubber’s pretty much been on the back of everyone’s minds.

          if it ain’t fix , why break it.

          Unlike oil (and other petro products) which we can extract from Northern America, rubber comes from SE Asia.

          Currently tire companies and medical supply folks (ie. condoms, rubber tubings and gloves) want to grow rubber in America (more aware now of another blight infestation), but it’s a pipe dream, popoy…

          i’ve been looking at the prospects of american rubber since 2012 when news of Guayule popped up again (they’ve been cultivating this plant off and on, most prominently during WWII, in CA and Arizona),

          now it’s buckeye gold dandelion to be grown in the mid-west, to outstage soy? Guayule (pronouned, Why-You-Lee ) looks more promising to be grown in the Southwest, because it is from the Southwest deserts, but the water issues of scaling this production will be iffy, especially since the Colorado river is drying up.

          bottom line, the rubber tree is it, at least for the foreseeable future. Guayule might be able to source medical supply rubber, but more hardy requirements like tires and gaskets they’ll still need SE Asian rubber.

          here’s a good read on the history of this strategic plant vis-a-vis American attempts to secure its sourcing.

          • kasambahay says:

            presently, being farmer in pinas is hazardous to health. farmers are being killed; shot, specially those from mindanao, mistaken for being communists, npa or sympathisers of npa, their lives disrupted, their lands taken, their loved ones threatened. same with indigent farmers. and it’s polis doing most of the shooting and killing.

            hard to plant crops under martial law, the whole of mindanao is under martial law, check points and men with guns abound. and bangsamoro organic law is seemingly not bringing peace, there is more bombing and killing instead.

            • kasambahay,
              that most land owners now in Mindanao are former cops and military,

              I understand.

              land turn-over in the Philippines is also high, families in-fighting, lawyers they hire get paid with land, also sell they land to pay for medical bills, etc. etc. in addition , to former cops/military, lawyers are always getting new lands.

              But you plant a rubber tree now, right now, and you start tapping its sap around 7 years, then it should be productive up to 30 years. so it requires fore-thought.

              7 years from now they’ll have new ways to tap sap,

              • kasambahay says:

                the country is now more or less owned by china. you cannot just plant ficus trees, rubber trees and whatnots without nod from beijing. and displaced farmers certainly cannot plant rubber trees on land they no longer own.

                china wants to mine lands for minerals, seas to fish, casinos to build. as for rubber, ah, if you mean rubber as in condoms! the africans once complained chinese made condoms are for pygmies.

                I think, I’m losing thread. see you, lieutenant corporal, au revoir.

                sorry for my being goofy.

              • If rubber is considered a strategic plant by the US, i’m sure China does too.

                so whether the Philippines returns to the fold with America, or consummates its relationship with China, rubber will still be viable. or just focus on local demand, read that link Ireneo shared above about a new Filipino (farmer) owned tire company.

                😉 you don’t need China permission to simply plant a few now, here’s some saplings…

  18. karlgarcia says:

    I also believe that the infrastructure projects must be continued by the succeeding admins.
    Senate investigations on Northrail Southrail, NBN ZTE was no reason to stop the projects, if it was found anomalous or scandalous, corrective measures must be done instead of leaving everything hanging.
    I hope going forward, same mistakes must not be repeated.

    • Pablo says:

      No, they will find different “mistakes” to siphon off their cuts. There is hardly any risk involved, only little pushers get killed, the guys stealing billions are left alone, hence they become very inventive.

    • popoy says:

      They ask which comes FIRST the hen or the egg? Which comes first the infrastructures for the outputs of production or the production system.

      Put differently which comes FIRST roads and bridges or factories instead of support for agricultural and industrial production? or to make it more simple is it the farmer(singer) or his low quality outputs(out of tune songs)?

      The always making assumptions economist will answer : Hold it, hold it. Let’s apply the cardinal principle of opportunity costs or opportunity benefits. No question about education and health for government expenditures. What about the uniformed forces (police and military weaponry), public works, natural resources? Where can one can get the biggest return? It could be a new thing like OCR (opportunity cost of returns) or OCC can be corrupted from being Opportunity Cost of Capital into Pinoy inventiveness like Opportunity Cost of Corruption.

      • sonny says:

        The wife says in any endeavor involving cooperation, first create and prepare the readiness for such cooperation. 🙂

  19. Pablo says:

    Direct people power? Look where it got the Brits with their Brexit. It works for Switzerland, but they have a long history of participation. Philippines has none, it would be wide open to manipulation and disasters. Don’t even try.

    • karlgarcia says:

      So every box is a Pandora’s box?

      • Pablo says:

        Why? When you have a system and it has flaws, then you fix the problems first. When you dive into an unproven adventure, you run the risk of total failure. When democracy does not work now, why should a system work which requires much more discipline in democracy? You need to walk before you start running.

        • karlgarcia says:

          Then I agree with baby steps and not going to short cuts.

          • Pablo says:

            Yeah, baby steps would be nice to see. But it seems to me that we’re sliding backwards on a very slippery slope with increasing. Distressing!

            • karlgarcia says:

              De-Stressing is what we need for now, and then we check our butts if there is skin left with all that sliding.

              • Pablo says:

                Our world is being destroyed as we watch.
                It is time to get angry, very angry and kick some butt.
                De-stressing is a recipe for complacency, even if not intended.

              • Pablo says:

                De-stressing in a time when everything falls apart around us and we’re picking up speed?
                Anger is what we need. More stress on the system and more positive anger.
                Some butts need to be kicked.
                Lots of butts actually.
                De-stressing is what we have done over the past 20 years, now action is needed.

              • karlgarcia says:

                They say Filipinos are so forgiving.
                Forgiving or too tired to even care? Not enough rage to even complain.

    • karlgarcia says:

      I know ignorance is never blissful, but to educate people, lifting them out of poverty is a big step towards ignorance reduction. Then once people have time to stop and smell the roses that will be the day when they care for people other than themselves.

    • popoy says:

      Let me apologise if I touch a raw nerve by just asking smart alecky questions or making stupid retorts. For example:

      I can’t see where it got the Brits people because of Brixit, there’s nothing much bad happening to the Brits yet, Not there yet. eh.

      People’s? participation is wide open to manipulation and disasters like EDSA?, that’s been tried before? Tell that to the BLMs people, the white supremacist marchers of America; tell that to the students marchers who marched in Mendiola shouting Diktador, Tuta, Ibagsak. Their participation is manipulated? Well, something bad it can not be denied happened to SOME of them because of participation in defense of a CAUSE.

      When there’s a big problem, which do you fix first, the problem or do you fix the people WRONGLY trying to fix the problem to make It worse, or the people who are really the problem.

      In the track and field segment of the Olympics, you ran fast as if your life is at stake, if you just walk, people might think you must be sick or at best you are protesting for something. Is life in a developing country like Pinas a track and field race or a walkathon? Or think it best just contentedly sleeping in the noodle house and never mind the bastards?

      In Pinas, grassroots participation is proudly (but wrongly) symbolized by BAYANIHAN where happy village men joined their shoulders to carry a humble home to remove it from the hacienda of the rice land or sugar land owner. IF only landless farmers own a little house lot in the village in those times, there will be no BAYANIHAN photos or paintings of exemplary people’s participation. Rightly or wrongly BAYANIHAN depicts honorable men helping one another. By the way Switzerland has a lot about like the Von Trapp Family being patriots in the Sound of Music and Edelweiss for young and old lovers.

  20. Re Filipinos forgiving or not by Karl:


    Maybe they are more compliant than forgiving. But even people taught to buy any bullshit feel if things ain’t right, and it is even worse if lack of an education in critical thinking makes them inarticulate, because the result is passive aggressive for a while, then howling anger.

    • edgar lores says:

      At this stage, I am inclined to Will’s solution — pray for the wisdom of the Filipino crowd.

      • I am more a realist, accepting that the Senate will go to Duterte (95% likelihood) and democracy will simply be the framework for executing autocratic ideas like federalism or impeachment of the Vice President. A class structure will develop with varying degrees of impunity, down to the unmentionables and disposables. Somewhere in there, it will be possible for ordinary people to live ordinary lives. After all, the malls need customers and the economy needs workers. There really won’t be a place for this blog, however, unless it becomes academic and removed from the Philippines, proper.

        • edgar lores says:

          Agree things look dim from the polls.

          The ongoing Bikoy expose may prove to be the Butterfly Effect.

        • karlgarcia says:

          I even heard of a 12-0 marching order and a Trillanes arrest after elections.
          Do we just give up?
          Surveys are not supposedly our cheat sheets for the elections.

          On another note some of my neighnlbors are meeting up and finding ways on how to support the opposition(maybe financially) that is good news. I asked Will on how to make this happen.

    • NHerrera says:


      With one month to go, the latest Pulse Asia Survey on the ranking of the Senatorial Candidates, considering the 2.3% std dev from 1800 random respondents nationwide, reflects the statistical variance:

      This means to me that Estrada, Tolentino, Osmena, Pimentel, Roxas, Aquino will be vying for the 11th and 12th spot.

      • chemrock says:

        Looking at the names on this list I think we can stop praying for the country. There is no hope. It’s a country that can’t even implement a simple policy on motorcycle number plates.

        • Feeling a little down with the results. Filipinos are stupid.

        • It is a country that can assemble 10,000 motorcyclists to protest the license plates, but 500 to protest loss of seas, and zero to protest the drug war killings. Once it touches ‘me’, it matters. There is absolutely no sense of an outer world that requires my allegiance and involvement to run well. I suppose we can blame the colonists, as blame is important.

    • popoy says:

      IN THE POST BELOW, trolled from a link, demonstrate HOW NOT TO NIT-PICK a worthy piece from an original (not a link) source; for this kind of bad, there is no excuse except perhaps to obey the author’s message and the importance to learn and do critical thinking. Differences in critical thinking way of life can easily be informative by reading and contrasting comments of readers in Philippines and US newspapers. Popoy has posted HERE IN TSoH the ROAST of US celebrities to contrast intelligent humour from toilet humour. Read on the eche bucheche IN CAPITAL LETTERS if there’s time. Critical thinking is not EATING A TWO MINUTE NOODLE OR AN EFFORTLESS EXERCISE.
      Dean Francis Alfar puts his finger on the Pinoy’s root problem.
      (THE KEY WORDS IS PINOY’S ROOT PROBLEM.) “It begins at school. The Filipino student is taught to be dependent (OBEDIENT NOT DEPENDENT IS THE OTHER WORD) on the teacher, from whom authority emanates, and to record verbatim (STUDENTS SELDOM CAN) what the teacher says and to give this back in the original form with little processing during examinations and rote recitations. Teachers (NOT TEACHERS OF SECTIONS ONE PUPILS) reward well-behaved and obedient students and (IN HIGH SCHOOL OR COLLEGE ONLY) are uncomfortable with those who ask questions and express a different viewpoint (this was true even in during my time (NOT FOR ALL TIMES) at UP – a theater professor interpreted my need to understand background and context via questions as a challenge to his authority) (NOT WHEN DONE IN APPROPRIATE MANNER). The Filipino student learns conformity and passivity (EXCLUDING THE FEW STUDENTS DURING THE FIRST QUARTER STORM AND THOSE WHO PRERISHED IN THE NIGHT). Generally speaking, critical thinking (THIS ARTICLE IS SUPPOSED AN EXAMPLE OF LEARNED CRITICAL THINKING) is not learned in school.

      “Outside of school, the Filipino is raised in an environment where we have to depend on our relationships with others in order to survive (RELATIONSHIPS WITH POLITICIANS TO SURVICE IS MOST APPROPRIATE). In a poor country where resources are scarce (DISAGREE, PHILIPPINES HAS THE RICHEST NATURAL RESOURCES BEFORE THIEVES GOBBLED THEM) and where systems meant to respond to people’s needs are poorly funded (VERY ADEQUATELY FUNDED BUT GOT MISSING), insensitive, inefficient or non-existent, the Filipino becomes very dependent on kinship ( WHO ARE HONORABLE BUT MOSTLY OTHERWISE) and interpersonal relationships. Networks – family, friends, schoolmates, etc – are powerful (VERY CORRECT VERY COMPASSIONATE) . Who you know, what you identify with, and where you come from/belong matter deeply.

      “Our sensitivity about hurting established relationships controls our behavior. We do not want to upset our patrons (GREAT FOR OFWs AS PRODUCTIVE WORKERS). We are constrained from giving criticism no matter how constructive (THE LIKEABILITY OF OFWs), so standards of quality are not imposed. We are inhibited from exerting more effort to improve individual performance because trying to get ahead is not considered acceptable. In fact, it is offensive to many (POLITICAL PROTEGEES).

      “The struggle for survival (WE HAVE THE FIRST INSTINCT OF MAN) and our dependence on relationships make us group-oriented. And in a group, we (UNLIKE CAVEMEN) move at the pace of the slowest member.

      “How can (OUR LEADERS HELP US) move away from this?
      “We need to (THINK TO) be able to change the way we think, to be able to learn how to critique and accept criticism (THESE ABOUT 80 MILLION OF US). We need to know when to question and when to lead. We need to learn to act (IF ONLY WE KNOW) when situations demand action.

      “We need to free ourselves (FROM TYRANTS) to think critically and not perpetuate this destructive behavior we continue to learn at the hands of various oppressors – to follow (PHONY) authority without question, to accept things (ESPECIALLY ILLEGAL AND STOLEN ONES) as they are because they’ve always been that way, to conform, to be docile, and to never ever rock the boat (ALREADY UNDER WATER).”

    • Can a nation or a wife be BOTH neglected AND abused?

      Questions for the moon maybe?


      • edgar lores says:

        One part of the abuse is the neglect of, say, the essentials. E.g. Raissa’s water and electricity.

        The other part of the abuse is the focus on the non-essential aspects. E.g. drugs and penile sizes.

      • karlgarcia says:

        We are all battered wives?
        This is why Pablo keeps on asking why are not the people angry.

    • popoy says:

      before the disturbing reality of the water problem was written in ABS.com blog link above, its theoretical aspects already was discussed here in TSoH.


    • edgar lores says:

      That op-ed of Raissa’s is surprising. I thought the water crisis had been solved. And an electricity crisis to add on top of it.

      The resilience of the Filipino is… astonishing.

      • popoy says:

        The Filipino as ethnicity is a unique, one and only kind among the world’s people. Pinoy’s (including Popoy) redefines words, concepts and events. Take Edgar’s two words: astonishing resilience. Shout them to rocky hills and get clear echoes: ASTONISHING RESILIENCE , , , Bounce them from a wall and get an unexpected ricochet. Astonishing resilience is the diamond as well as the rubber quality of what AILS the Pinoys. Problem, problems, corruption, floods, killings, illegal drugs, dirty elections, measles, hundreds of them problems. Filipinos EASILY solve them every time but they have ASTONISHING RESILIENCE to Pinoy’s solutions, they keep COMING back like time- resilient songs. In a far fetch way a Pinoy is like Sisyphus pushing that problem rock up the mountain slopes only to repeat and repeat endlessly that punishment because unlike the Pinoy, Sisyphus killed death because he did not want to die.

        • popoy says:

          The Pinoy as may be admired by the unaware is an indefatigable problem solver, and an unceasing happy solution-provider. Water crisis? That’s ALREADY been solved many times before. Eh.

          • popoy says:

            For those who prefer to read LONG paragraphs in SHORT lines:

            The Filipino as ethnicity is
            a unique, one and only kind
            among the world’s people.

            Pinoys (including Popoy) redefine
            words, concepts and events.
            Take Edgar’s two words: astonishing resilience.
            Shout them to rocky hills
            and get clear echoes:

            Bounce them from a wall and
            get an unexpected ricochet.
            Astonishing resilience is
            the diamond as well as the rubber quality
            of what AILS the Pinoys.

            Problem, problems, corruption,
            floods, killings, illegal drugs,
            dirty elections, measles,
            hundreds of them problems.
            Filipinos EASILY solve them
            every time but problems have

            to Pinoy’s solutions, they keep
            COMING back like
            time-resilient songs.

            In a far fetch way, a Pinoy
            is like Sisyphus pushing that problem rock
            up the mountain slopes only to
            repeat and repeat endlessly
            his punishment by the Almighty God
            because unlike the Pinoy,
            Sisyphus killed death
            because he did not want to die.

            • These Africans in Ceuta, Spain (actually part of the Moroccan coast like Gibraltar is part of the Spanish coast) are certainly resilient – or prefer to risk falling and breaking bones than risking crossing the Mediterranean in a rusty, overfilled ship.

              The ones trying to grab them or catch them are the Guardia Civil, the modern version, same name. On the way to the airport this week, a black man was saying “white people seek adventures to be a bit scared, but black people are scared everyday! HA HA HA…”

              • sonny says:

                Flight or fight?

                What is the context of this picture? Who are the people fleeing the Guardia Civil? Where are they from? To where are they fleeing? From where?

              • Africans fleeing northwards to Europe, just like Latinos flee northwards to the USA – or Syrians fleeing northwestwards to Europe, though that has stopped somewhat, after a time some years ago when hundreds a day crossed the Turkish/Bulgarian border..

                In any case refugees sooner or later encounter the US ICE, the EU Frontex or if they are crossing to Ceuta or Melilla it will be the Guardia Civil of Spain.

                They may decide to try to climb a border fence like in Ceuta or Melilla (or Serbia to Hungary) even if it is tall, or tunnel under a border wall like I heard some do in Tijuana, or dare the Rio Grande, the Mediterreanean or the Black Sea, risking drowning.

              • “The solution to a dilemma: create a third choice.”

                The EU is pouring money into Libya and even supporting Turkey (inspite of all its human rights violations) to keep as many refugees as possible over there.

                Route 66 from Chicago to LA or the land route from Damascus to Munich are more or less the same distance.

              • The going over or under walls and fences I think there’ s no going around it, Ireneo.

                the policy has to be in cold-hearted deportation, at this point. it is an emergency, something past administrations have swept under the rug, but one Trump is happily fighting (it generates buzz for him, makes him look pro-America).

                Australia and New Zealand are fortunate. Europe, and UK and the US, we’re not as lucky geographically.

                they are pulling at the heart strings of America right now, but this is a pure numbers issue.

                they simply need to suspend asylum laws and legal proceedings , and do wholesale deportations (using military cargo planes). not to Mexico, but back to Central America, most in South America refugee to Brazil, or Argentina or Bolivia, Panama plays its role

                great as choke point, so the problem countries are just Central American countries, sans Belize and Costa Rica , only 4 countries really at issue.

                they are braving and taking chances walking into the border because for years they’ve known about lax asylum laws (incidentally many Filipinos, having over stayed their tourist visas, plead asylum by purporting either being victimized by the gov’t or by the NPA,

                and since there’s no way to verify, the judges usually offer asylum). that’s how easy it is.

                So suspend court proceedings (technically its no actual court system, American laws apply to Americans only, hehehehe… maybe except for Assange, but that’s another discussion, American laws applying to non-Americans should piss off the rest of the world, but what do i know 😦 ).

                back in the day, the unwritten Cuban refugee law used to be as soon as they touch American soil, its automatic asylum;

                nowadays, it should be once they touch American soil, it’s straight to a waiting military cargo plane, and straight back to their country of origin.

                ICE and Homeland are being purged as we speak, I think to accommodate something like this. this type of policy itself will be a deterrent, unless folks just wanna free ride on military cargo planes, which I can atest is very uncomfortable.

              • sonny says:

                I went searching for Ceuta, Spain, Irineo. Thanks for ‘sending’ me there. Very interesting place as still part of Spain.

              • sonny,

                we have something similar here, Point Roberts just south of Vancouver, or even Guantanamo bay in Cuba ;

                but Ceuta i heard is the reason why Spain’s ask to get Gibraltar back usually falls on deaf ears, they essentially have the same thing just across!!! Lol !

            • karlgarcia says:

              Popoy that is what called Poppoysynthesis

              • “The EU is pouring money into Libya and even supporting Turkey (inspite of all its human rights violations) to keep as many refugees as possible over there.”


                we did this with Mexico, essentially making Mexico our “wall”. and I think they did okay keeping Guatemalan, Honduran, El Salvadorian and Nicaraguan refugees at bay.

                but not so well, keeping cartel violence and drugs at bay. so as far as bang for your buck goes, the money poured into Mexico had low returns of investment.

                Libya’s gonna be a huge problem soon for everyone, while Turkey not so. Libya’s our fault too.

                re Mexico our previous policy encouraged cartel activities , since the Mexican gov’t and the cartels are joint at the hip, Mexico is responsible. though Central America is our fault.


                i do wanna stress that illegals already here and now part of American fabric they should be allowed access to immigration courts (or simply live under the radar unmolested), but ICE, Border and the rest of Homeland need to curb refugees ASAP at the border, before we get a huge Europe-like refugee crisis.

                right now ICE and Border are running around looking for illegals in communities, that’s waste of resources, concentrate them at the border, help out in detention and deportation. Border Patrol has jurisdiction up to 30 miles out of the border, and many of them not trained in actual law enforcement, actually end up doing illegal detentions , ie. breaking civil rights of Americans.


                the irony of all this is American banana republic policies in the early 1900s, then Iran-Contra stuff in the 1980s (with cocaine trafficking), then finally in the 1990s with California deporting central American criminals back to their home countries, ie. MS13 (la Mara Salvatrucha) and 18th Street are all Los Angeles gangs , essentially transplanted inside Central America,

                then as Colombian cocaine cartels winnowed , Mexican cartels replaced them, using these central American street gangsters, now mutated into something central American, home-grown, into distribution networks in the US.

                all that helped create current conditions for the current refugee crisis we’re seeing today. For a century our policies have failed Central America, now China’s interested in that region. let China have them.


            • sonny says:

              The choice: die once or live forever. Die once & take your chances in the after-life or live forever and accept the now-life and still take your chances. Both futures unknown.

              • sonny says:

                The solution to a dilemma: create a third choice.
                (Joe, pls delete the other identical reply under Irineo)

  21. @sonny: theoretically, one could stay inside the neutral zone between Ceuta and Morocco..

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