I wish the Catholic Church would focus on accountability rather than forgiveness
Analysis and Opinion
By Joe America
The Catholic Church is a great humanitarian institution. It gives the Philippines conscience, and comfort. But it needs to help more, socially, and politically.
The Church is forgiving. Great. But forgiveness undermines accountability if it is exercised as the dominant moral foundation. It is the opposite of accountability, which is what happens when a human owns up to mistakes and corrects them.
Corruption is killing the Philippines and the Catholic Church is not doing enough to root it out. Not doing enough to get rid of the nationwide acceptance of corruption.
Corruption is evil. It is the theft not just of taxes, but of jobs and infrastructure and education. And food.
Unfortunately, Philippine institutions do not fight corruption the way it should be fought. It’s like there is no conscience. The Philippines forgives corruption through a justice system that favors the entitled. Citizens accept corruption as the norm. Forgiving it.
The Catholic Church should be the nation’s conscience. It should be outraged. Its flock should be outraged. The Church had its voice when President Aquino ran things, threatening to excommunicate him for being pro-contraceptive. Remember the crowds back then? The signs in Church windows? It was, of course, the President’s secular job to temper runaway population growth and end the suffering arising from the nation’s inability to feed everyone.
The Church does have a say in things. It can speak out if it chooses to. It could oppose pogos, confidential funds, and discretionary funds. And the raid on Phil Health reserves. And other purchase shenanigans like the expensive Chinese jeepney replacements.
But the Church today seems to have lost its public voice. I don’t hear outrage about corruption, even though the damage is huge and theft is a material sin.. I don’t hear anything.
Where is the accountability?
What is the Church for?
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Photograph from The National Catholic Reporter article “Philippine House passes reproductive health bill over church objections“
The Society of Honor by Joe America 
Thanks, Joe America! The Catholic Church (everyone, too) should focus more on ac-countability!
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Thank you for following all these years, Sir Gemino. Glad you agree, and, yes, it is not just the Church that needs to help get the Philippines to go straight.
The Catholic Church, the Christian Church or any religious org for that matter have to step up in their self-declared vows as agents of social justice. See the hordes of priests officiating in ceremonies honoring the corrupt. See the agents of the religious posing for photos with those who milk the country dry. Let’s move our sermons and homilies from “I am a sinner” towards “Why is our country such a sh**hole?”
Thank you for the direct-speak. I totally agree. They are more likely to coddle the corrupt than work to cure corruption. They seem to be on the same path as Quiboloy.
Well, even Cardinal Sin was close to Marcos Sr. – until he wasn’t, which was a long story.
I read somewhere that the Vatican also reorganized the dioceses in Metro Manila after Sin (what a name), some suspect to reduce political influence.
There is a difference also with individuals – Archbishop Tagle of Manila stays clear of politics while Bishop David of Caloocan is as political as his brother Randy David.
Add to that what Prof. Vicente Rafael noted that increasing parts of the middle class became Born Again Christians from the 1990s onwards.
Finally, I have no idea how strong the pull of the Catholic Church is nowadays compared to 1986, even among those still Catholic.
Sin is a romanized variant of the surname Xian (Mandarin), Ham (Cantonese), Tan (Vietnamese), Shin (Korean). The tribe bearing the surname originated from Foshan, Guangdong, from where some Chinoy ancestors immigrated from. Interesting name though for a Catholic.
Also to note, Bishop Nereo Odchimar who had threatened to excommunicate President Aquino before he was over ruled by every other bishop in the Catholic Church of the Philippines, was ordained bishop by Cardinal Sin. In Catholicism (as well as other episcopalian traditions such as Anglicanism, Orthodox, etc.), episcopal lineage of ordination is extremely important and can give clues on the personal beliefs of the minister or prelate in question. I’ll just say the late Cardinal Sin ordained quite a few reactionary bishops in his episcopal lineage.
Most Filipinos are still Catholic since the Church gives them spiritual comfort they are familiar with, when they seek it. But in terms of how strong the Church’s pull is, we can all observe the famously hypocritical ultra-religious Filipino’s deeds as he/she steps out of the sanctified doors of the church. This also applies to other faiths like Second Day Adventists, Mormons, etc. etc. That’s my indicator, haha.
the separation between church and state is enshrined in the 1987 philippines constitution. in the end the catholic church will always adhere to the letter of the law. though catholic clergy try hard to wrestle some influence and moral ascendancy.
in the time of cardinal jaime sin, the catholic clergy was well and truly well funded and not merely reliant on citizens donations. private catholic schools and colleges as well as privately owned hospitals were thriving well, catholic owned business like cafeterias and restaurants, the sale of catholic memorabilia, books, etc. were big contributors to the coffer. no wonder cardinal sin was confident to go head to head with marcos, there was enough stashed to ensure the cardinal and his ilk will not come 2nd best. then came the time of want and global business mismanagement. and now the catholic church is not as wealthy as it was once, attendances at church is not as robust, and those entering the priesthood are dwindling in numbers.
Christianity overall is declining across the West, and Western influenced countries like the Philippines. There are some studies on this in terms of the US context, with the main culprits being the breakup of community cohesion as Americans grew up and took jobs across the country. A similar thing happened in the Philippines with the successive waves of OFWs that accelerated since the 1970s.
The Catholic Church is experiencing explosive growth though across the rest of Asia and in Africa.
methink the rise of charismatic christian churches in the philippines where it is almost like a rock mass complete with the miraculous healing of the afflicted many, and casting demons off the supposedly possessed mark the decline of the influence of the catholic church. so unmatched in showboating and extravaganza are charismatic churches. and politicians are making beeline hoping for their endorsement.
Indeed, a lot of these charismatic revival pastors use emotions and people’s weakness to energize them into feelings of rapture. Then the pastors laugh all the way to the bank with their private jets and helicopters, which Duterte certainly enjoyed. To me it’s sad since those poor people are being conned out of the little money they have.
I heard Filipinos turned Couples for Christ into an orgy and/or wife swapping group.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what Couples for Christ was set up to do. Never met a Couple for Christ member that engaged in those activities. It’s probably just seldom instances of people behaving badly, because humans can behave badly.
I don’t think it’s good or reasonable to conflate some people’s bad behavior with the entire organization.
I’d have to look at the method, I’m not really familiar with it, if its like couples therapy only with more couples then if you’ve got sex addicts thrown in i can understand how it would blow over into some bigger. but I’ve heard similar instances for Masonic lodges in the Philippines too. so maybe its just the getting together part. i dunno.
The group is mostly to encourage couples to have a stronger relationship (if they became distant or separated) through doing good works in the community together. But I guess it’s possible for people with bad intentions to join. I mean back in my younger days my friend and I would wingman each other in real life “Wedding Crashers,” before the movie even existed. I was the Vince Vaughn character lol.
Some Filipino tambay men like to form clubs and societies. Some might even call it Masonic though I doubt they understand even the basics about Masonry. It has a cool name though and that’s what counts for a social club. Some others make secret societies where they have titles like Datu and kedatuan. All they really do is sit around, drink and smoke while “shooting the shit.”
I wouldn’t read much into that LCX
But my Gawad Kalinga post is related to CFC. Auto correct or auto suggest suggested KFC and I am hungry.
This were your accountant bank teller fits LCX. Accountability.
kidding aside, auditing is needed even in parishes
LOL, KFC sound s good right about now. but I’m a Popeyes guy myself, karl. dunno if its there. as for Couples for Christ, I did see that there are Mexican Couples for Christ too. but I learn about it back there. I thought it was a Filipino thing at first.
We have Popeye’s
Thanks for the viewpoint, Irineo. I get so confused. The passion for Pope Francis’ visit in 2015 was through the roof, and in 2016 Filipinos vote for a philandering, womanizing dirt mouth. I guess it’s a fluid and flexible institution that is personality based and politically aligned here and there, thoroughly Filipino. Not principled, cohesive, and steady. I probably should not really expect them to want anything more. Where more is honest and productive to better care for the flock.
iglesia ni kristo as well as quiboloy’s church voted onerously for duterte. at the time, the head of iglesia ni kristo na si manalo urged his followers to vote for duterte, coz apparently manalo was not happy with one time friend ex pres noy who did not grant manalo his wishes. so manalo cozy up to duterte. after winning the presidency, duterte granted manalo his wishes and appointed some of manalo’s followers to high position in government. thus ensuring iglesia ni kristo’s influence in government’s decision. I can only surmise that businesses allegedly owned by iglesia ni kristo got some lucrative government contracts.
addendum: with around 8millions followers, the el shaddai church headed by brother mike velarde apparently did not endorse a presidential candidate in 2016, but bro velarde endorsed bong marcos as vice president; leni won the vice presidency from marcos.
Thank you for the background. If churches can endorse candidates, it seems to me they can and should speak out against corruption. To the extent they don’t, and hobnob with the corrupt, they become corrupt themselves. Hearing the silence, one could easily conclude the Catholic Church is one of the reasons why corruption is so widespread and deeply ingrained in Philippine culture.
I am supposing the catholic synod is hoping all is behind them now. the bad publicity about the pajero bishops during the time of ex pres gloria arroyo, the bishops currying for earthly favor and material things in exchange for their blessings and spiritual benefits payable in heaven.
even the one time bishop of quiapo was in the payroll of scam queen, janet napoles, and was paid monthly stipend by her. it was reported that the blessed statue of the black nazarene was loaned to janet napoles and stayed in her house for a time. many of us little people believed tuloy god must love janet napoles! and that is she became a saint, it would be because of the bishop’s intercession. it was a shock to us when janet napoles was jailed for corruption.
I can’t recall the name of the pajero bishops, so if you can remind me. But anyway that is bad behavior on the level of what caused Luther to split. I must be associating with the wrong priests since the ones I know have holes in their pants 😅 but if there are bad bishops, then they are not supervising priests correctly. The next question to ask is which archbishop or cardinal appointed them, and which pope appointed the cardinal. The cardinals appointed by Pope Francis are still in theological battles with some cardinals appointed by Pope Paul VI (all the way back to the late 1970s). There are still bishops, archbishops, cardinals who are secret sedevacantists lurking about even if they pay lip service to current popes. The odious Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò was just recently excommunicated for example.
https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/22412/what-separation
https://mindanews.com/top-stories/2011/07/bishops-named-in-pcso-fund-controversy-face-senate-bewail-%E2%80%98pajero%E2%80%99-tag/#gsc.tab=0
Sad. Most were appointed by John Paul II, save for one appointed by Benedict XVI. John Paul II, for all his positives, did appoint quite a few bishops that turned out to be problematic. Almost all the borderline schismatic bishops arrayed against Francis were appointed by John Paul II.
The current Bishop of Binh Duong and Archbishop of Saigon are my relatives (cousins of my father through great grandfather) and they certainly don’t ride in style that way. I’m used to parishioners pitching in to tend for the needs of priests and nuns since the clergy usually give their meager allowances to the poor.
Personally, I would say that the individual Filipino is the one who tends to be fluid and flexible, not the Catholic Church of the Philippines.
The fluid I was referring to is the different positions from priest to priest, and choosing which sins are worth speaking out on (contraception) and which are not (stealing). I agree the Church organization itself is a rock of tradition and ritual. And, yes, individual Filipinos are fluid in a biblical sense of *sometimes* holding to honesty or compassion, but also like a rock in ritual and prayer. I like the Church a lot, in my own way. I can sit in a Cathedral anywhere and get my soul aligned with those who have passed before. Spanish cathedrals to me surpass Egyptian tombs and temples in calling out the spiritual root of our being.
Individual priests hold varying views, and choose which views they push to their local flock. This doesn’t speak for the whole Church though which requires: 1.) The pope teaching from a position of “ex cathedra” in an official papal bull (in which he exercises his authority of “magisterium,” or speaking on dogmatic issues via the Holy Spirit) or 2.) An ecumenical council of all bishops, the last was Vatican II being the 21st ecumenical council, and a stamp of approval by the pope afterward.
Ministers are human after all, and they are shaped by their biases and lived experiences. This means that each individual priest might emphasize some things while de-emphasizing other things. Sometimes ministers “innovate,” meaning they are making a new teaching that isn’t recognized by the church through the conditions above since they have no authority to do so. But as parishioners we just entertain the minister and pick/choose what our own conscience thinks is good. If a priest is really out of line with canonical teaching, they would be heavily reprimanded by their bishop and so on leading up to a papal reprimand.
The only thing that ultimately matters in Catholicism is adherence to the current official Canon Law, which of course includes the Ten Commandments that one can extrapolate contraception or stealing from. The Catholic Church also teaches that in our imperfect human world, sometimes one needs to choose between the lesser of two evils because the human world exists in shades of grey not black and white. For example, officially contraception is morally wrong since it inhibits procreation, but abortion or abandoning a child born would be considered even more morally wrong, thus most American bishops have said that it is morally correct to choose the lesser evil (contraception). Pope Francis has made his personal (not infallible) position clear on these issues as well, and aside from a few reactionary bishops the American Catholic Church has followed suit. The Catholic Church of the Philippines often looks to the American Catholic Church for guidance, yet is “behind the times” in following.
Perhaps one can say that religions should do more to indoctrinate their believers on morals, but I guess from the beginning of time and the invention of religions believers only take what they want to hear and believe, discarding the rest.
Did you get to watch Corpus Christi, the film based on a true story about an ex-convict who poses as a Catholic priest in a remote Polish village? Of course, the premise is in a very different culture, in Poland where Catholicism can be pretty hard-core, I was told. A priest telling people that to forgive is to love would probably be the norm in the Philippines. Or in the German Rhineland, where postwar Cardinal Frings gave blanket absolution to all who stole due to hunger or cold. Of course, the role of Catholicism in Poland in putting the first chip into the wall of Communism is memorable, even as some promoting authoritarian populism now isn’t..
I haven’t watched Corpus Christi before. I’ll add it to my list of foreign films to watch.
During my travels of Eastern Europe, I found rural priests to be very folksy. Of course the priests probably came from similar communities to the ones they served. The parishioners also held priests to a more revered level. I also noticed the same behavior in other rural parts around the world I’ve been to, even in Asia.
Good Catholics, or rather, good people in general, often struggle with moral failings even if the failing is minor. That’s why humans have a conscience, I guess. There are numerous examples in the Bible that suggests that it is permissible to commit venial (small) sins, or even mortal (major) sins if a person had no choice due to threat against their life. But a true believer would still feel guilty, so a minister giving absolution would make the followers feel better spiritually even if they were never wrong in the first place.
Even as a child, I knew the Catholic Church was inches away from schism due to Vatican II. Which is silly since the reactionaries who were against Vatican II had as their arguments that the Church had lost its way by modernizing, especially as it deals with using the vernacular in liturgy. Strange, I had recalled that the original Bible was written in a mixture of Old Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, while the liturgy was originally in oral Aramaic then for centuries it was in Koine Greek, the lingua franca for centuries. It wasn’t in Latin, as the reactionaries claim to want to go back to. Sadly, the power of reactionaries has only grown in the age of media and social media, with elements of the American Church, Philippine Church, Hungarian Church, Polish Church, and African Church containing the most reactionary priests. The alliance of reactionary Catholics and American evangelicalism since Billy Graham in 1978 has given more power to the reactionary cause.
As a child I have no idea what schism means.
My Bible study period as a younger adult was under a Baptist minister who was probably as close to learned as they come. Most of the sermons were moral lessons as I recall. Certainly the New Testament seems moral to me so I can’t come to grips with a non-moral church. Not amoral. Just that it’s too much bother for them to teach from the greatest moral masterpiece ever written. Well, outside Don Quixote and Chaucer I suppose. 🤣😂🤣
Well you’re lucky you didn’t have a fire and brimstone preacher. We used to have such a priest at my church, though he was replaced with a much younger Filipino priest who does much better.
The Bible contains many contradictions, actually, especially in the Old Testament but even in the New Testament. Some verses say we should destroy our enemies, while other verses say we should turn the other cheek. I guess being humans, we just pick and choose the verses that justify what we already want to do. Soon after, we’ll all become amoral pretzels.
Yes, exactly.
I’d have to disagree with this role for the Catholic Church, or any religion for that matter. Religion belongs in the spiritual sphere and should stay there. There’s a great danger once any religion plays a political role (I know, I know, the Catholic Church of the Philippines played a role in two People Power Revolutions). Religious ministers should stay put in their role of tending to the spiritual and sometimes physical needs of their flock.
There are many misconceptions of how the Catholic Church is structured (even among cradle Catholics), so I will attempt to briefly outline:
1.) The Pope is the spiritual leader of the World Church; Each individual bishop is largely autonomous. This is by design going back to the Peter’s role of “first among equals” in the original Twelve Apostles. The Pope influences through spiritual guidance. He has no power at all to compel other bishops to do anything. The only ultimate tool is Papal excommunication.
2.) Going by this structure, national Catholic Churches are usually organized into a Conference of Bishops led by the senior Cardinal among the bishops and archbishops. The same above pertaining to the Pope’s power applies, except the level of influence is diminished the lower down the hierarchy.
3.) Bishops also have the power to excommunicate within their jurisdiction, but their excommunication has no authority outside of their diocese or domain.
4.) Excommunication is a rarely used tool that is avoided, because it can cause a schism.
5.) As pertains to intra-Church relations, schisms are a big deal and taken very seriously. There are reasons for this. The original Pentarchy splitting into the Roman Catholic-Orthodox “Great Schism,” the Roman Catholic-Lutheran “Protestant Schism” that brought about the fractured Protestant churches come to mind.
The Catholic Church threatening to “excommunicate” President Aquino was something that was never going to happen, because Bishop Nereo Odchimar who made the threat wasn’t even an Archbishop or a Cardinal; he was a bishop of a small diocese. He only had authority to excommunicate President Aquino in his domain, which was the Diocese of Tandag. He was immediately over ruled by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines (the episcopal council that governs the Catholic Church of the Philippines), even though he was the titular “president” of said body. In any case, if he had proceeded to excommunicate President Aquino from the Diocese of Tandag, he would’ve invited reprimand from his immediate superior the Archbishop of Cagayan de Oro, followed by the Cardinal of Cebu, and ultimately the Cardinal of Manila. The entire episode was hot air and sensationalized by the Filipino press.
It’s also useful to note that especially the rural bishops of the Catholic Church of the Philippines can be reactionary. The World Catholic Church has been at risk of schism since the Vatican II Council, with increasing threats being made by reactionaries to split. Catholic is derived from the Greek word Katholikos, meaning “universal, whole,” which is why schism is such a heavy matter. Since Vatican II, there has been an alliance between reactionary bishops and archbishops who are minor prelates in the American Catholic Church, Catholic Church of the Philippines, and the Catholic Church of Africa. Pope Francis excommunicated a handful of the most extreme bishops and archbishops recently. Overall Pope Francis is trying to take the Church in a more progressive direction. The Catholic Church has a history of self-correcting behavior (even if it may take a long time), as evident in the post-Reformation Catholic Church reforming itself, while Lutheranism quickly fractured into thousands of competing mini-churches that make up today’s Protestants.
Sometimes the Church as a whole doesn’t speak on certain matters due to risk of schism. This is not unique to larger institutions like the Catholic Church, whereas in the Protestant traditions independent churches might feel more leeway to speak out. Is this correct or is this wrong? I tend to think that religion should stay out of politics altogether. Filipinos, even if it may seem that they meld together their personal and spiritual lives, actually keep both quite separate. By having religion taking on a more political role, it could mean that the nation as a whole have failed.
People have the power to elect better leaders, and perhaps the focus should be on educating voters until the nation gets there. By expecting religion to do the job, I just feel that one patriarchal structure is being replaced by another patriarchal structure, further infantalizing the capacity of the citizens thus making them more helpless and dependent. We should find ways to develop the capacity of citizens.
I don’t mind having it that way, but it is the Church that plays it both ways. They insert themselves on divorce, but not on corruption. Which does the greater harm to Filipinos? It should be consistent. I’m good either way. They have arguments that we should understand so I personally don’t mind them engaging. I find it bizarre that they don’t have arguments against the corrupt who infest their flock.
I’m reminded by the Popes criticism of Not Building Walls towards Trump, then Trump supporters just showed photos of the Vatican’s wall. So for sure Corruption they have to stay silent, Joe. cuz it’ll be a bigger mirror to face.
Good point.
That MAGA retort was a straw man argument, since they’ll grasp at any straws they can to say “I told you so!” even if their point has no relation.
The reason why Vatican City has walls was to assist against frequent pirate attacks after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. The walls were built slowly over centuries and were no longer used after the 1800s, especially after the Unification of Italy.
Any human-run institution is vulnerable to the flaws of the humans that run it, however Catholic corruption is an old anti-Catholic Protestant trope going back to Luther’s princely supporters (who were eyeing the land owned by Catholic monasteries to fund their wars), and turbocharged by the Anglican flirtation with Calvinist influences during the English Reformation (British historians even acknowledged it as the “Persecution”). Charges of Catholic corruption were always historically strongly accompanied by accusations of “Papish plots.”
I was surprised some years ago to find out that England didn’t allow Catholics to run for Parliament until some time in the 19th century, I believe – realizing that the Northern Ireland issues must have had their roots there.
Of course, Protestantism is culturally tied to capitalism as it rose during that period, while Catholicism has cultural ties to what was before, though that has, as you mentioned, been unreasonably maligned due to propaganda.
As someone who has been a fan of Pirates of the Carribean, I always found the anti-Spanish and anti-Catholic tropes in it hilariously obvious and an indicator of how certain ideologies trickle down into the mainstream of entire cultures.
Yes, Capitalism grew out of the older Agrarianism. The Low Countries and England took the nascent capitalism to another level since their territories lacked natural resources, so they engaged in trade to earn money as the middlemen. Freeing up agricultural labor enabled the industrial revolutions, and so on. This coincided with the spread of Protestantism in England and today’s Netherlands, and connected loosely with Protestantism in general not having a teaching against usury.
The conflicts in Northern Ireland actually dated back well before the formation of Northern Ireland. The Ulstermen (Unionists descended from Scottish Presbyterian plantation owners sent by the English to colonize Ireland) were in conflict with the native Irish population since the 1600s. When Ireland gained independence, the Ulstermen wanted to stay under the British despite Irish Catholics outnumbering them, which started The Troubles.
In regards to Pirates of the Caribbean, the ride that the movies were originally based on was dreamed up directly by Walt Disney. Disney was a Congregationalist, which is a Reformed Calvinist Church. Though Reformed Calvinism isn’t as explicitly anti-Catholic as Calvinistic Presbyterians (for a time, Congregationalists were even persecuted in England since they wanted to remain separated from the permitted Calvinistic Presbyterian Church of Scotland), they still hold some anti-Catholic views which shows in Disney’s interpretations. But stuff evolves over time. Gone is the gaudy Pirates of the Caribbean many American children enjoyed since the 1960s. Replacing it is a more generic version of piracy in the Caribbean. I’ll miss laughing at the pirates chasing the wenches.
Yes, I agree that corruption is crushing the Philippines. However seeing as “religious” Filipinos of any faith are usually hypocritical in their personal lives, I highly doubt any minister can have any real influence over them. I see it as Filipinos innately separating their spiritual lives with their physical lives, as it should be. The Catholic Church isn’t as powerful in the Philippines as some may think. I would go as far as to say that organizations like Quiboloy’s KOJC are even more powerful politically even if the organization itself is smaller.
I don’t think it’s that constructive to say for example “the Church plays it both ways.” Most of the loudest voices are individual priests, and some bishops who don’t speak for the Philippine Church in its entirety. No different to me from let’s say Father Coughlin in the US back in the day. They will have their ardent followers, but ultimately have no power.
In almost all Christian-derived traditions, there is no distinction made when it comes to forgiveness. Historically there are many examples of kings and warlords who waited until their deathbed to get a blanket forgiveness. I think it’s important to recognize that distinction and the line between spiritual and worldly issues.
I’ve always believed that religion does its best work in helping the poor and needy. Religion doesn’t do as well interjecting in worldly affairs. Even the strongest Catholics (myself included) tune out the practices they don’t agree with. Over time the Church will self-correct, but this process takes decades, even centuries.
Corruption is a political and societal problem that needs to be solved by government and the society at large, not by churchmen chiding worshipers who probably won’t even listen. I think the reason corruption is accepted is quite obvious. Corruption exists because it benefits someone, even if it’s the bobotante who accepts a P500 vote bribe and a bag of canned goods every 6 years. In the Philippines, corruption is supported and accepted by the society down to the lowest member. The only complaint most people give is that the corruption benefited someone else more than it benefited themselves. If they could monopolize more benefits from corruption, they would gladly support it even more. Create conditions for something more beneficial than common corruption, and people will gravitate towards what they see as a higher benefit.
That makes a whole lot of sense. Thank you for the enlightenment. I have zero counterpoints.
IIRC you had shared before that you were raised Lutheran. Scholarly Catholics joke that Lutherans and Anglicans/Episcopalians are just “funny Catholics,” since most of the practices are the same. Luther’s original argument was the pope at the time was not addressing the bad and immoral practices of local priests and friars quickly enough, while Henry VIII separated because he wanted desperately to father a male heir and the pope stopped giving him free passes. However the influence of John Calvin and Presbyterianism is evident in some Lutheran and Anglican churches, depending on proximity to Switzerland for the churches each particular modern church descended from.
The way the Catholic Church is structured is quite similar to Lutheran or Anglican structure, minus recognizing the pope as the supreme canonical authority, so we can observe local Lutheran pastors having wildly differing worldly, and even sometimes spiritual views compared to the next Lutheran Church, even in places like Germany or the American Midwest where Lutheranism is strong due to Germanic influence. On theology, what prevents schisms is the adherence to the core beliefs, not the individual innovations of priests and pastors that will die with them.
Isn’t another difference that Protestantism doesn’t have confession and absolution like Catholicism. My mother – who is German and Lutheran – used to joke that a lot of Filipinos confess on Sunday to sin the rest of the week. Sonny, who is a commenter here but hasn’t been around in ages, told me that many Filipino Catholics don’t understand the idea of metanoia, the change of heart and introspection that isn’t that far from Lutheran “in sich gehen” or self-examination to seek forgiveness directly from God. As I was baptized and raised Catholic, I don’t really know much in detail about Lutheranism, even as my mother’s grandfather was a Lutheran missionary at Lake Toba, Indonesia. I did hear from my mother that the Pietistic Lutheranism of Southwestern Germany (possibly Swiss influenced?), which Hermann Hesse left, or Reformed Lutheranism were very different from mainstream Lutheran. Though, one can see how Bavarian and Rhineland Catholics are very different, a lot is culture I guess.
Ah, Irineo, I did consider becoming a priest once, before realizing that Catholic priests can’t have women and fast cars.
It depends on which strain of Protestantism. See, the issue with Protestants is no one agrees with everyone else, which gets worse in non-denominational independent churches led by a single pastor. Although a large organization like the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church (and to a smaller extent Anglicanism) might be clunky, there are benefits to having a hierarchy and order in the teaching, even if not everyone follows to the letter.
Confession and absolution is practiced in Protestant denominations that are not “Reformed,” which is to say not deriving from Calvinism. Lutherans do practice confession and absolution, as do Anglicans/Episcopalians, and Methodists to name a few.
As for confession itself, the Catholic tradition of confessing via a priest is connected to the original practice of confessing via a confessor. Actually, Catholics still keep the practice of confessors though usually it is done with very hardcore religious Catholic lay communities who act as each others’ confessors. The confessor tradition was still quite strong until the late Middle Ages. Since it’s impractical for Catholics now to have a confessor, a Catholic would confess via a priest acting as a confessor. In any case the purpose of a confessor is to avoid self-deception, akin to the early practices of public confession. One has announced one’s sins to a witness before God, so to speak. Then in theory the confessor would hold their co-religionist to account on their professed contrition and repentance.
Of course, even most cradle Catholics would not know any of these things unless they studied theology. Most people only know what they have learned and observed, so they might develop misconceptions and then pass that ill-formed belief on to their children and so on. The same holds true for any religion.
Pietism aka Pietistic Lutheranism is a movement within Lutheranism and isn’t always a different faith in itself. Pietism emphasized individual piety in order to lead a Christian life. Pietism was one of the influences of American Evangelicalism, especially the various Charismatic Revival Movements.
Reformed Lutheranism is the branch of Lutheranism that was influenced by Calvinism. This contrasts them from the Mainline Lutherans who consist of the Confessional (conservative) and Liberal Lutherans who differ in views of how to interpret the Bible themselves. Later Frederick William III’s decree to create the Union Church (Prussian Union) forced all three denominations of Lutheranism to combine with Continental Reformed churches. So American Lutheranism is as confused as German Lutheranism!
Kings and warlords reminds me of what for instance the Benedictines originally were: geeks trying to survive in a world that turned from civilized into a mix of Mad Max and Game of Thrones. Not preppers BTW but more like the crowd that practices urban gardening, though, pioneers of new methods in agriculture without which for instance Bavaria still would be way behind. Sure, the Benedictines had fortresses on hills very often like Freising or in the mountains like Maria Laach in the German Eifel – but they had to make sure the lords, the “biker gangs” if one follows my Mad Max analogy for the Dark Ages, didn’t shut them down.
That lords can be distrustful of religion isn’t just about Henry II, rid me of that bothersome priest, one can also see it in how China and Japan went against Buddhist influence – even as my knowledge of those matters is just at the start. Popes in medieval Europe of course were guarantors of one civilization after Imperial Rome had long perished and Byzantine Rome had turned into a total theocracy. Renaissance Popes came from Italian political families etc etc
Haha, first I’ve heard of that analogy for monastery life and it fits. I had always seen Middle Age monks are somewhat like the otakus of the day. They just wanted to be left alone with their esoteric knowledge and hobbies.
Pre-Mao China and Japan eventually melded Buddhism with native beliefs though. Animism, Ancestor worship, and in the case of China, Taoism. I’m sure outside of Buddhist, Taoist, and Shinto monasteries, the governments could care less what happened as long as people sent their yearly tithe. Sometimes in times of war, if funding was lacking the governments took to raiding monasteries to get some quick cash for war, just like the Europeans did with Catholic monasteries.
Oh , man . you missed out on sonny, Joey. he’d have loved you. he’s the same generation as NH. taught me about Carthusians when I was talking about how I liked Jesuits but wanted to know if there were more hard core monks still around. they’re over in New Hampshire or Vermont, so he suggested Camaldolese monks in Big Sur. cuz i guess they wear white too.
I was educated until university by friars belonging to the Order of Servants of Mary (Servite Order), one of five original mendicant orders. Learned a lot from them: theology, history, sciences, mathematics, literature. They’re why I graduated high school early and was basically a college junior when I started university. In the recent decade I’ve been doing work alongside the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer (Redemptorists Order), who focus on work among the poor.
There are still cloistered and eremite (hermetic) monasteries, but even cloistered monks were never really closed off like the eremite monks. Cloistered means the religious community excludes themselves mostly to prayer and work. Monasteries have always engaged with the nearby community for the community’s needs, and to trade necessities. For monk’s habits (the monk robes), the color depends on the particular order’s traditions. Most orders use darker and plain habits. Mendicant orders (friars) have more variation and color in their habits.
Do you know a lot of Jesuits, Joey? cuz I read somewhere they go on the road like Jack Kerouac. or at least that was the intent of that tradition, but the Catholics i’ve talked to said when they’re on the road they pretty much go from parish to parish, not really an adventure anymore. When sonny said I should visit Big Sur, that was the sime when the PCH was closed, so never made it and i’ve never made time since. but yeah, these monasteries monks stuff I’m really interested in, especially the Orthodox side which seems to be setting up a lot of monasteries these days.
Yeah I know quite a few Jesuits and Dominicans. They’re both mendicant orders meaning they travel from place to place to minister. In ancient times they had to travel by road inn to inn, town to town preaching along the way. But we live in modern times so they travel by car of course. The original five mendicant orders were the first modernists, which is why they also heavily focused on advancing scholarly pursuits.
thanks, Joey. i need to read up on these guys more.
“The reason why Vatican City has walls was to assist against frequent pirate attacks after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. The walls were built slowly over centuries and were no longer used after the 1800s, especially after the Unification of Italy.” I didn’t know that about the wall. thanks. but I did see a documentary of the Swiss guards and how bad ass they were and still are. but as meme I think that Pope Francis quote and picture of the wall still works though. precisely as you’ve stated walls are built to keep unwanted folks out. and that question during the debate which Kamala Harris deftly side stepped still applies, eg. why just close down the wall 6 months prior to election, cuz it was wide open all through out. but more importantly Trump didn’t really build a wall after all, but was able to get Mexico to stop folks at their southern border. thus the decrease. then Biden, and the invitation to come over spread around the world. so the media’s wondering now why the polls are still holding for Trump, cuz he obviously lost that debate. and I’m thinking the economy and open border issue is what’s in everyones minds especially in the swing states, Joey. thus that meme which is like 8 years old now I think, still very much applies. namely we need walls, doesn’t have to be actual walls like the Vaticans but like in the form of deals with Mexico for them to hold their southern border which is a better bottle neck to close down.
No, Trump is holding because in the last 8 years his base never shifted. Around 24% of Americans are hardcore MAGA kool-aid drinkers, and Trump’s overall base has never broken 38-42%, give or take for polling errors. That was before he killed a couple hundred thousand followers through Covid. This means that he can’t win without depressing the vote on the other side. After all, if a party was confident they’d win on their merits they don’t need to make it harder for people to vote.
Building a wall was always dumb. People can climb a wall, cut holes in a wall, tunnel under a wall. Even if we put the entire Army on the border there’s not enough personnel to stretch across. It’s better to increase surveillance with drones then intercept.
But most importantly, the media hyped up border crossings under Biden and ignored issues under Trump. Crossings are about the same, because most are claiming asylum. They’re not crossing then disappearing. They just stand there and wait for CBP, then claim asylum. In order to claim asylum they only need to touch US soil/water with a fingertip since then US law applies to them. It was Biden who changed the asylum regulation to make it tougher since crossers were abusing the asylum system, and therefore less people crossed when it became harder to make an asylum claim. Republicans blocked their own proposed law, to help Trump retain an election issue, which would hire more immigration judges to process asylum claims faster, and reject illegitimate claims faster.
Swing states are pretty far from the border. Anyone who claims a border issue in swing states have cooked brains, especially when towns claiming border issues are lily white in population and have rarely met a non-white person lol. I live in a border state, and less than 2 hours from the border and it’s just not an issue. The media and Trump hype machine makes it a bigger issue than it is. Notice how the “migrant caravan” only pops up every 4 years, then when a Republican wins it’s no longer an issue just like their rants about “national debt?” A lot of these things are over exaggerated and some are straight up fabrications, and have been the same Republican talking points since the 1970s.
If the US wants to stop border crossings then we need to do a better job addressing issues at the root cause, which is instability in the countries of origin. Instability which American policies over decades have some responsibility for. Mexico actually has even higher security at their southern border but migrants still get in.
“Swing states are pretty far from the border. Anyone who claims a border issue in swing states have cooked brains, “ Agreed. but that’s why the Aurora CO and Springfield OH immigration issues are still gaining traction. Aurora due to Denver taking in immigrants and Springfield the 60,000 + 20,000 plus Haitians = failure in policy issue. on top of this are the cartels going into indian reservations thats in Montana Wyoming Dakotas so its not just the border states, people are seeing the issue is spreading. maybe they’ll not see it in their own towns yet but they can see it spread. then you factor in regular legal residents/citizens Hispanics moving into states like Alabama. as to migrant caravans this is the thing I’m trying to figure out too, cuz you’re right it pops up and then it disappears so someones orchestrating it. but it makes more sense that its folks like Soros or China or Russia, than MAGA cuz they wouldn’t be going to those countries unless they’re rescuing kids from sex slavery. thats the only reason for MAGA to go outside of US. by definition MAGA doesn’t travel outside US. thus the migrant caravan is a Democrat stunt than not am thinking, Joey. I do agree with your last paragraph, all this was cuz of the banana wars. I just saw a bunch of pro El Salvador posts in Twitter. so yeah, helping them there would lower the likelihood of them needing to come here. but even Kamala Harris can’t explain what policies she’s responsible for that succeeded in this front. and this was her role. so it looks like Costa Rica El Salvador and Panama are the only ones kicking ass. no thanks to Kamala Harris. China’s suppose to be building another canal thru Nicaragua i think. but having Mexico close down their southern border is essential.
“Crossings are about the same, because most are claiming asylum. They’re not crossing then disappearing. They just stand there and wait for CBP, then claim asylum.” its not about the same, Joey. it blew up under Biden. Biden opened it up and invited people in.
Ah no. Immigrant invasion narrative is an old Republican trope the GOP pulls out of the hat every election cycle since the Southern Strategy took in all the old racists and KKK into the GOP. Why would Democrats attack themselves with the issue? 😅
There’s less than 5,000 Haitians in Springfield by the way, and they’re all here legally. They’re doing jobs that native Americans don’t want to do so I don’t see the problem. If the US helped Haiti recover from natural disaster we wouldn’t have this problem, but the last time the US went to Haiti we kind of messed things up since we used the military(more than once).
Aurora has a large Hispanic population. So sure if the Republicans want to play the race card games they can. That’s how they lost a solid Republican state like California in the 1990s, and started losing Southern states like the Carolinas and Georgia as well.
Child sex trafficking.. hmm maybe. But curiously all the MAGA anti-child sex trafficking warriors keep on being outed as child sex predators 😅
Since I grew up around gangs, I know a thing or two about conspiracies. And in a conspiracy, two people can’t keep their mouth shut which is why criminal conspiracy always get caught. There’s no way there’s a Soros-led conspiracy of tens of thousands and never got caught. It’s just a lie pushed by Russia.
I think it’s a bit dangerous to start expecting electeds to become powerful enough to solve every problem or be our personal attendants. That’s impossible, and besides, a lot of these problems are out of our control. Well, at least on the other side we have “concepts of a plan” hehe.
“Why would Democrats attack themselves with the issue?” The same reason why DACA went after Obama in 2012 or LGBTQplus pushed the democrats, why pro Palestine protested at the DNC not RNC. cuz like you said GOP is pretty esconced whereas Democrats have a bigger tent thus caravans to push more immigrants would be done by folks trying to insist that open borders are good for America. Democrats are more malleable when it comes to the border and immigration. whereas for GOP its a hard no. stop immigration entirely if they can. as for Haitians in Springfield its not less than 5,000, Joey:
others have said its closer to 30,000, so maybe its a city vs county numbers, i dunno.
ps. the fact that hard numbers is so difficult to get , is worrying to me. i mean they flew these folks from Haiti, there should be hard numbers from the federal gov’t.
I carefully curate my information intake to make sure it contains factual information. A lot of the stuff you share seems to be what people are saying on YouTube and podcasts 😅 remember, those people need to stoke anger and emotions in order to drive engagement and thus money. That’s also why they move from issue to issue at lightning speed. Mark my words, once Harris wins the Republicans will suddenly stop talking about the border and start talking about the national debt (which Biden reduced after Trump ballooned it by giving tax breaks to billionaires).
“Mark my words, once Harris wins the Republicans will suddenly stop talking about the border “ I gotta feeling whoever wins. the borders gonna close down regardless. that bill will be passed. hopefully we’ll have an immigration system that’ll be more like Australia.
“There’s less than 5,000 Haitians in Springfield by the way, “ Are you still going by this number then, Joey?
Comment of the year. You Tube knowledge.
Google and YouTube, Joe.
And Chief Troll, haha. Joey’s comment caused me to think about our information levels.
1. At the top is the dirt, the advocate outlets pretending facts. Fox, You Tube opinions, opinion columns, and trolls. Dispensers know they are not being factual.
2. Below that are conspiracy theorists and people making advocacies out of bad information. The ignorant, but not intentionally devious. This is most people I think.
3. Next layer are the broad brush data gatherers. Wikipedia and You Tube channels that research and inform. This is a very valuable source of generalized knowledge and context.
4. Research papers, official documents, economic data and graphs. Court records. The facts as best known. Primary knowledge.
Well, all are legitimate, as opinions and one-sided views can provide insights. The problem it that it is hard for most to see the other side. They only read what confirms their view. This is Chempo’s realm.
Most of us range between 2 and 3, with occasional dips into 4. Yours are also between 2 and 3, but you are more inclined to dip into 1 than 4. Joey is a 3 and 4 guy. I am 1234. Irineo is everywhere as well but is wise enough to know the frailties of 1.
Then we get into the realm of logic, or, as is most commonly used, fallacies. How the data are put together. Advocacies are dirty if they use illogical methods. Most people are not skilled enough to even know when their view is illogical. The most common unknown illogical method (name calling is generally understood as improper) is extending to a general conclusion from anecdotal information. It is hard to argue against that fallacy because the anecdote can be certified as true. Trump understands the value of the argument. Someone sees a colored person swipe some ducks from a pond and suddenly all imigrants need to be deported.
I get exhausted trying to sort out your data and methods. I would quote you for insights, but not data. I would quote others for insights and data. They are trying to filter the water clean. You enjoy muddying it.
LCpl and I are just having a bit of fun here, Joe. Though I admit the increasing amount of subthreads is starting to hurt my head, so I can’t imagine you feel as admin being bombarded with comment notifications lol. I’ll try not to get LCpl too excited with my more up to date observations of his Mango girls so that the water stays a bit more clear 😂
My worldview is informed from growing up dirt poor, but being lucky enough to be surrounded by intelligent people who entertained my “but why?” since I was a child. Then the numerous friars and lay brothers who educated and encouraged me, especially in sportsmanship and debate club. I see myself as someone in the middle who tries to understand both the elites and the poor, having lived in both.
I believe in respectful engagement even if don’t agree with someone fully, but if all fails my old boxing coach did say I have a mean right hook 😂
Well, LCX is prolific at bringing in a lot of stuff, and that’s fine some days and pisses me off on others. This article is going nowhere so I don’t mind the diversions. Other times, I want to make a point and Mango Street fantasies do nothing but defeat the purpose of my efforts, which amount to over 1,200 articles so far. So yes, I get tired of Mango Street. But I am also fascinated by how people gather and dispense information.
As I observed together with Irineo recently, I think as educated people often we can miss the forest for the trees. This is one of the reasons why the lower socioeconomic classes see us as elites. I’ll say that poor Filipinos are usually quite surprised that I can empathize and understand where they’re coming from, since I’ve had similar experiences. Then they start talking, which is useful for understanding other perspectives. Even the lowest classes like drug users and prostitutes have some nuggets of knowledge to glean, the trees so to speak in the forest. They are also very surprised when they’re treated as humans, not a product or a service.
Over here back in the US, I think Biden gets it since he came from the lower middle class. Have to build up a society from the foundations, which is why I still believe the most effective way to improve the Philippines is to raise as many people as possible to the middle class using education and better jobs.
That’s likely how it will progress, naturally. The question is, can it be accelerated? My hunch is that it can.
I think the process can definitely be accelerated. I shared some self-taught industrious experiences from Cebuanos I spoke with or am acquainted with, but not everyone can figure things out in the School of Hard Knocks. Whether through the government fixing public education, or some NGO flush with funds and resources to tackle the problem, either one (or both) would greatly accelerate things.
I have a lot of love and hope for the Philippines, but honestly sometimes I concur with Irineo. Sometimes I just want to smack my head against the wall since the basic solutions to start fixing problems are so simple, yet it feels like so few people in every successive government except Aquino’s sees it.
Thats all of us, I think.
Look, Joey. all I really wanna know now before the day is over is, was your lodger from Dumaguete hot? and what are we talking about as far as celebrity look alikes here?
Joe, that’s a fair assessment. I’ve been saying I’m a PhD in Google. I’m no expert in anything. except maybe Mango Ave but even Joey has taken this expertise here. which is fine so long as I get up to date info on Mango Ave and Mactan. my business partner in Munich needs business strategy and I have no knowledge on opening up a business. but for sure we’re gonna franchise. Philippine wide is the plan.
Hmm, I would say she looked somewhat like a younger, morena slightly slimmer version of early Ellen Go Adarna but with Bisaya wavy hair. Certainly not an unattractive woman. A lot of my Bisaya guy friends think like you LCpl and asked me why I didn’t take advantage. Well, I’m a gentleman and I don’t chase women. I have moral standards I’ve kept since I was a kid when I saw how kuya friends’ treatment of their partners destroyed the woman supporting them. I’ll await God’s blessings, and I’m thankful he has blessed me many times in my life hehe.
“You enjoy muddying it.” The whole enterprise is muddy, Joe. I’m not muddying it. like why aren’t we getting the numbers for Haitians in Springfield. shouldn’t Kamala Harris have issued this out already to render Trump’s claim illegitimate? see how its already muddy? that’s not me. i’m just pointing out its muddied.
She has better things to do than govern to your specifications. The arrogance of that screaming challenge is incredible. The US risks getting a horrible horrible human being as president because categories 1 and 2 alike are getting hot with accusations that tear down decency and accuracy and fail to build anything. Yes, social media is a mess. But the strength of this blog is that it strives not to be. And you fail relentlessly to help it stay out of the muck.
I’ll have an article out tomorrow that addresses this.
I spent my entire youth in the Republican Party until my mid-20s. Young Republicans, College Republican, canvassed and door knocked for candidates and so on. And I know full well that when the issues post-Nixon Republicans bomb throw on are addressed because Democrats can be wimps sometimes, the Republicans will just invent another issue. Nothing will ever be good enough.
In politics if a politician is on the defense, they’re losing. Trump is on the defense and losing. Better for Harris to make the arguments that brings people together rather than tear them apart. Her packed rallies is a stark contrast to the boredom inducing rallies the other side hold. That in itself is a measure of the effectiveness and difference in energy levels.
though the enjoyment you perceive, Joe. might just be me taking the title of Chief Troll to heart, but remember I tried to give it to i7sharp. and I think he was more than happy to assume said role. but you blocked. and where is i7sharp? he woulda been all over this blog with numbers and pages in the Bible readied. that guy can bring down the entire Catholic Church with a single post.
i7sharp would have to answer that. He is not blocked. I suspect he realized that his interests and mine were incompatible when I published the comment guidelines in the tab up above.
Didn’t i7sharp just use ChatGPT to pull summaries from Google? I thought it was strange that he queried me with a list of questions a few times, and when I took the time to answer the questions he never engaged until the next ChatGPT comment in the next blog post. I thought he was a bot.
I7sharp tends to get into long-winded discussions of Bible verses and sees the KJV as THE authoritative text. There are long threads with LCPL_X showing him there was the Vulgate and, of course, the Greek and Hebrew texts before.
When I joked about Ophir and the Philippines, I think in connection with Tallano gold, he took it seriously, it seems. Actually, he is a possibly retired aircraft engineer who went to Lufthansa trainings in Germany in the early 1980s. Reminds me of some of my Pisay batchmates who are great in their jobs but believe in creationism. Some actually believed in the allegations that the Las Ketchup Song was full of Satanic references. Examples of how Philippine education fails.
The KJV, as beautiful as the wording of the verses may be, was a piece of propaganda by King James VI and I as he attempted to prevent schism in the early Anglican Church and pull back in radicals like the Puritans. I never understood those who insist the KJV was *the* authoritative version. Maybe it’s due to Protestantism’s tendency over time as pastors split off further from the Mainline to take things literally. Some who argued with me on this pointed to the KJV subtitle which states “Authorized Version,” but that is just a historical reference to the original authorization by Act of Parliament and the subtitle wasn’t used until the early 1800s, over 200 years after the commission of the KJV…
It could also be that he has unmanaged OCD, something I also still struggle with today since it wasn’t recognized as a treatable condition back in my school days. I had patient teachers who guided me in ways to use the condition as a strength and minimize weaknesses. He may not be aware or know of how to deal with it. OCD is common in many engineers I work with, which I guess is one of the reasons why engineers typically are very focused in their area of work/interest.
He had developed his own computer catalog short form links, and obsessed over the King James Bible. Lots of questions and mysteries, but no solutions. Also always civil.
Interesting. He may have OCD, something I also struggle with. Since the condition wasn’t well studied or acknowledged when I was a child, I was lucky to have teachers who were patient enough to teach strategies to use it as a strength instead.
OCD is an interesting angle i don’t think we’ve considered, Joey. but he did connect a lot of numbers. like numerology but more. but his rabbit holes were insteresting.
OH, man…. thanks for the visual , Joey. i’ve never had anyone drop their towels in front of me. so this is kinda one of my fantasies.
Yeah, I’ve found that people who are obsessed with numerology and other “esoteric” knowledge to be prone to having OCD. Well, I try to be patient with people anyway.
I’ve found in life that a woman’s attraction to a man has to do more with how he carries himself, if the man has a bit of seriousness interjected by humor, if the man can connect life experiences in interesting ways to empathize. Of course physical attraction is there too, but not as important for women. The trick is to let women become interested in a man, and if a woman is serious she will go for it. I have never chased a woman in my life; that’s against my moral code. But somehow, I’ve been a bit lucky a few times.
Into the moderation bucket for you, colonel.
We already asked him nicely and on my part sometimes not nicely.
DACA didn’t really go after Obama, and granting protections was the right to do when most of these people were here since they were toddlers and don’t even speak their mother tongue. One of the top DACA spokesmen is a Pinoy by the way. You’ll be surprised how many DACA recipients are pinoys, with families sometimes bringing relatives over on tourist visa then letting the visa expire on purpose.
Pro Palestine is an Iranian and Russian op with leaders that aren’t even Democrats, while the participants are mostly kids who don’t know anything about the conflict. FBI recently confirmed it is all a foreign influence campaign, and besides no one cares about the protests anymore since the Russians found other things to try to divide Americans on.
Democrats are not pushing caravans.
No one who’s serious thinks there should be open borders, including the majority of democrats who want to increase border security. It’s Republicans who see blocking the legislation so they’ll have a campaign issue.
In the news article, it says “some have said,” which means it’s randos making claims that can’t be verified. The city manager (their mayor) has said the number is less than 5,000, and they’ve been there years. MAGA and Russia are just inventing campaign issues since they have zero things to run on. My buddy lives in Springfield and he said the city is still lily white, and the troublemakers are all from the outside, like the neo Nazis who came in last week. I mean come on man, when neo Nazis are supporting an issue it’s time to run as far away from it as possible lol.
“It’s Republicans who see blocking the legislation so they’ll have a campaign issue.” I do agree with you that its a Republican stunt, but the bigger picture is that the border/immigration issues are kept front and center as it should be. sure the national debt is important, but too abstract. people understand walls and people understand borders when they see people just walking thru it.
“The city manager (their mayor) has said the number is less than 5,000, and they’ve been there years. “ it was the city manager that laid out the up to 20,000 numbers. https://ohio.news/articles/20000-haitian-migrants-read-springfield-city-managers-letter-to-sherrod-brown
so all Kamala Harris has to do is to produce the actual number of Haitians her office resettled to Springfield OH. cuz I don’t think local gov’t officials themselves know. and this issue can be put to bed already. its that simple. cuz IMHO this is the issue thats gonna push Trump in the swing states. Kamala Harris needs to nip this in the bud already, Joey.
It didn’t matter even if we can find building a wall across the whole border. Anyone who touches even a single sovereign grain of dirt or drop of water on the US side of the border now has the full protection of our legal system to make any claim they want. That’s just how laws work. Mexico isn’t going to let us build a border on their side, so there’s always going to be a bit of land or water left after we build a wall. Now if we had more immigration judges, which the bipartisan immigration law Trump killed would increase funding for, those people making claims would have their claims looked at and if their claim is no good, get sent packing. That’s the real fix, and Republicans haven’t cared about fixing immigration since Reagan’s Immigration push in 1982. Ever since GOP have just used the issue as an attack when there’s a Democratic President. They didn’t really care when Bush Jr. or Trump was President since they were busy giving money to billionaires.
“, get sent packing.” they’ll just go TNT, Joey. unless theres an actual fear of being rounded up.
Sir Lance, there seems to be a misunderstanding that the GOP is blocking this contentious border security and immigration issues. There’s a bill submitted by the House in May, 2003 that was tabled by the senate leadership.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2#:~:text=Passed%20House%20(05%2F11%2F2023),-Secure%20the%20Border&text=This%20bill%20makes%20various%20changes,employment%20eligibility%20of%20new%20employees.&text=This%20division%20requires%20certain%20actions%20related%20to%20border%20security.
One of the top DACA spokesmen is a Pinoy by the way. You’ll be surprised how many DACA recipients are pinoys, with families sometimes bringing relatives over on tourist visa then letting the visa expire on purpose.
————-
Jose Vargas presented himself to media quite well and argued convincingly that through the fault of not his own denied legitimacy to stay in America.
Unlike in the Philippines, late registration of birth will do.
“Sir Lance, there seems to be a misunderstanding that the GOP is blocking this contentious border security and immigration issues. “ thanks, isk! I don’t really get this stuff. its like gov’t shut down votes. theres too much bs to parse thru. all parties playing politics at the expense of the American people. so when theres proof that they did it or actually its them. us vs them stuff. better to just consider the numbers and go from there,
That’s disingenuous. You can easily google to find that the Senate passed a bipartisan bill and the House rejected it at Trump’s request. The problem is that these facts run counter to your narrative as you join all the rest of the category 2 ignoramuses tearing at the fabric of decency and earnest solutions because they get their jollies that way.
“She has better things to do than govern to your specifications. The arrogance of that screaming challenge is incredible. “ Its not , Joe. this is the issue. this is the only issue, Joe. so if its indeed 5,000 or less, then she would’ve cleared this issue up the day after the debate. instead of cats and dogs now we’re seeing that there was a bigger problem with resettlement. we know that like the Afghans, Haitians wouldve been flown in via military or chartered flights, and land in military bases. there would be an accounting, who goes where, etc. this number is easily obtainable is my point, Joe. and since its THE issue, immigration, borders, laxness in these policies which ties both open border and refugee resettlements. this should be Kamala Harris’ forte. her time to shine. cuz now I’m thinking the numbers are higher not lower and that federal folks screwed up in resettlement. I dunno how they did it during Vietnamese resettlement, but I remember they were spread out. and with Hmongs etc there were actually Green Berets organization also helping out in their day to day. its not a challenge , Joe, the numbers are there. they just don’t wanna share it. is my assumption. why that is is what i wanna know. because this is the election issue that ties up the 4 years of Biden Harris administration, Joe. either they can show case their success or they can hint at their failures if they don’t explain.
You are entitled to your opinions, as I am entitled to ignore them as irrelevant or destructive to America’s best interests.
Joey, Irineo or Joe
Re: Thomas Jefferson.
The Legacy
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”
-Thomas Jefferson to the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, January 1, 1802
Make no law on establishment of religion and make no law prohibiting exercise thereof.
So legislators should not start and should not stop organised religion, is it not?
My reading is that US govt has no part in how religions are organized or operate, and cannot write tax laws or other constraining acts. Citizens are free to worship where and how they wish. It protects churches from government. It does not protect government from churches. The wording in the Constitution is similar, and freedom of worship is attached to freedom of the press and freedom of speech.
Here’s an excellent review of key issues about US government and religion.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/07/05/10-facts-about-religion-and-government-in-the-united-states/
Many many thanks Joe.
Religions in the US are free to pursue politics, but technically then they need to give up their 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status. Of course, many churches don’t respect that law and it’s considered political suicide for the IRS to pursue offending pastors.
Still, good pastors know that the Establishment Clause actually protects religion from the government diktat and thus stay out of politics. The ones who act politically, such as the New Apostolic Reformation aligned churches with Charismatic Revival ideology that have infected American Evangelicalism and “Traditional Catholics,” don’t care because their ultimate goal is to take over the government.
Yes, weird churches.
Flashback 2022 Elections.
The Catholic church did endorse Leni and Kiko.
https://www.bworldonline.com/opinion/2022/05/12/448110/church-and-politics/https://www.bworldonline.com/opinion/2022/05/12/448110/church-and-politics/
Ah, thanks, Karl.
Welcome.
ps, did you catch that Chel Diokno is now a member of Akbayan? Big news. Yellows and Pinks should fold in, too. Real opposition.
Thanks for the info.Joe, I will read about it.
It jibed with your quick analysis about the left / Akbayan, the last time we talked about it. (Barry G)
I meant the Real opposition part jibed with the analysis from the news article.
Yes.
Re Catholic Church’s Social Activities
Exhibit A
Gawad Kalinga.
Infighting led to GKs turn to a secular NGO unlike before that it was a religious org annexed to Couples For Christ.
More on that on wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gawad_Kalinga
We are prone to implosions. Ask Irineo on historical implosions.
An observation is sometimes less educated and less introspective Filipinos have the need to become the supreme datu of the organization. Everyone vies for leadership, then when one faction wins, they don’t have a clue on how to lead. The pursuit of the top position was the only goal. It is a zero sum game with no overall strategy. This is how a few friends’ social groups imploded as well.
Corruption falls squarely on the lap of the government. How then can the Catholic Church insert itself in a process in terms of taking accountability? For one, what new role, if any, will the Church take in attacking the corruption problem?
We all remember during the time of former president Marcos Sr., the Church was very active in denouncing corruption. That and its role to slowly force the Marcos regime to give up power for the good of the country. The Church was the single most powerful institution (the military just came later after it converted) that gave a hard time to the Marcos regime. We all know what happened then.
Today, the Church remains to be the guide of the people in terms of spiritual, social and moral suasion. But, I think, it is not the same Church the Filipinos had during the dark days of the dictatorship. Back then they have an astute and maverick leader in Cardinal Sin. Like Moses, he can really ‘part the sea’ by merely making speeches in order to protect and save his disciples and shame the powers that be.
Now it’s no more. There was no understudy to Sin. And because of that, I have doubts that the Church can bring back its enthusiasm to political undertaking to influence people and leaders to follow its task to address corruption.
Also, what comes to mind in talking about the Church’s accountability is, how can it take an active role in combating corruption aside from its usual approach in its moral teachings? If the sermon and proselytizing are not producing results, what else can priests do?
If the Church assists and coordinate work with the government, how will it look like? In such a scenario, we’re going to see Church and State working hand in hand, so to speak.
Does that not violate the separation of Church and State? I don’t know. All I know is it will look awkward seeing the Church taking orders from the government or vice-versa. Also, it could pose danger because any big and powerful institutions with different goals or principles working side by side could possibly spell trouble for the country.
That is an excellent statement, that accountability for corruption rests solely with government. I agree. How do we get government to agree? Therein lies the rub. Who should be bringing persuasion to government? The people, through their votes. Who can encourage corruption? All who remain friends with the corrupt or stand idly by and watch. The entire nation is standing idly by or helping the corrupt by voting for them. I don’t argue that the Catholic Church is the sole institution responsible for solving the corruption problem. But they certainly are encouraging it by applying no heat whatsever to the issue. Families can’t do it. Governments won’t. Who will?
Earlier today while browsing old posts, I saw Karl’s decade old comment “You cannot just bribe one congressman, it has to be a whole village.”
This was what I was conveying earlier as well. Corruption exists because it benefits someone, even the voter who registers his entire family on the party list to receive the P500 per head, a bag of canned goods, and an extra P100-200 per child to ensure his family’s vote. One can focus on the big targets who engage in corruption, or instances where common people are abused by the authorities into giving a bribe, but I think this misses the point that even the lowest member of society in the Philippines engages in corruption when it benefits them. It is a society-wide problem, not just a problem at the top.
I’ve observed more times than I can maintain count that outside of high-minded Filipinos, others only complain when corruption benefited others more than the corruption benefited themselves. They complained because they felt slighted and deserved that share of benefits someone else received. If they can gain more benefits, they would support the general state of corruption even more. Sure, one can debate whether this is moral, or the argument from the left that the reason why even the poor supports local corruption is in their desperation they need support from the corrupt LGU heads. Perhaps it can even be debated if this is nuanced by the ancient Filipino tradition of feasting, gift-giving, and sharing the spoils.
To reduce corruption, conditions need to be created that are more beneficial to the most people when they make a calculation on whether to support “corruption when it benefits them,” or to turn against corruption altogether on moral and fairness grounds.
To have good leaders in a representative democracy, the citizens themselves need to be good citizens. When a citizenry is not capable of selecting good leaders, that is a reflection on the leaders yes, but it is also a reflection on the members of society as well. Leaders often mirror the populace. So I propose that a way be found to start educating from the lowest member of society upwards, informing with increasingly louder voices, showing them that while their single vote might not be that strong, together we are stronger.
That was Jesse Robredo’s goal before he died, and his widow’s driving passion. It is reflected in good governance champions like Vico Sotto. It’s why I say turnaround is only one president away if he or she understands why government leaders are corrupt. It’s because they don’t get paid enough.
Admirable goals from them both. I was saddened when Jesse Robredo died in the accident. But I still think that the reason why Philippines can’t change yet is because a single President can’t do much even if they control Congress. A sustained grassroots is needed. For that voter education on issues is a must. Many Filipino social movements are ephemeral, even the People Power movements that brought out so many protestors fizzled out.
I hope you are not giving too much credit to us grassrooters! that we can single-handedly deliver the much needed change of the millennium. yay! all that power, power to the people! give it to a man!
grassrooters voted because they have to, does not matter who they voted, sinner or saint. I say, the failure of making incumbents stick to their mandate is often the cause why our country languishes in the doldrums.
once inaugurated, incumbents ought to leave their wayward ways behind, and do solemnly what is expected of them, mandated of them, required of them. that should not be too hard to do as they have all the faculties god has given them. power to the people, given to a man.
failure to do their mandate can mean impeachment, loss of status, loss of job, etc. and that is not the realm of grassrooters. it’s the job of incumbents to keep their rank and file strictly honest and transparent, not opaque and obscure.
I suppose it’s easier to point the finger at grassrooters, and shackle them with the sole burden of what ails the country.
but who are grassrooters, really! the muslim vote? the christian vote? the psuedo christians? the paid trolls that spread misinformation and target candidates? the vote counting machines that suddenly malfunction despite many a dry runs? the poll and survey firms that preconditions outcome? the charismatic churches that throw their support and en bloc votes on whoever top poll survey just before polling day?
I love grassroots, the most maligned in the country. maybe that is why god has made grassrooters stoic on the outside, jelly on the inside, and rocky roads in between.
KB, honestly as always you’re right again. The grassroots shouldn’t be blamed, because the evil acts are done by the wrong doers in the first place. In the Philippines’ case, the wrong doers are the corrupt, the many uncaring leaders, those who are more interested in power for power’s sake than using the power to help others. Sometimes the wrong doers occupy all the above categories at once, which is an amazing feat that maybe they should win a medal for.
I do admire Filipino activists (except the far leftists) because they shed light on the wrongs of society. However I still think it’s fair to access that like many groups in the Philippines, the various grassroots are just not that good at organizing in a way that will activate the majority of the population that’s needed to put the feet of bad leaders against the fire. When individual groups can’t become big enough, then it’s useful to build coalitions to combine forces on common cause. Even in hopeful instances where we think the good guys may finally win, the coalition quickly collapses before reaching the goal.
The problem is the people thinking they are powerless to change bad behavior by incumbents. Yes, each individual Filipino is small and weak compared to the elites with their power and money, but by standing together they even overthrew Marcos Sr. The goal of bad elites is they seek ways to divide and conquer, to make us smaller so we can’t stand strong together. Though, sometimes Filipino society at large is really good at making themselves smaller themselves and thus unknowingly doing the dirty work for the bad elites. Even the “good” parties can’t agree on long lasting coalitions, they should be the first example to the people.
Grass roots is real and wholesome, I agree. And it’s not in the lexicon or belief system to think “I can change the Philippines”.
Corruption is life. Conceptual morality does not exist.
Well, it exists, but it is too weak to rise from the pits of oppression.
Rather an an extreme Thanos like suggestion. Joe already said the Barangay level.
Start from the bottom because it starts there.
Oh well it is the same as grass roots
But grass can be pulled out easily.
So let’s go to the Earth’s core.
Try destroying that.
If the captains go along with a better plan then yes, if not the people should be better equipped to vote them out. One of the biggest tools used for control is the party list, but it can also be used for good. I think we all are saying the same thing, the only differences are but quibbles on the margin, which are minor.
that reminds me of ex pres duterte who once said the rich dont steal. that bong go is billionaire and dont need to steal when bong go was accused of being the inside man in the anomalous frigate deal.
as for public servants, I think, they should be paid as per mandate, they have benefits and perks of the job, have paid leave, study leave, etc. public servants get paid more on promotion, less on entry level. and their pay ought to be indexed regularly.
paying public servants more is no guarantee they wont be involved in corruption, or look the other way coz the kuraps happen to be friends, relatives, or coworkers.
ahem, the public servants some of them ex police chief that embattled bamban mayor alice guo bribed in order for her to get out of the country, were already highly paid. maybe, they just could not say no to a pretty face!
It is the Singapore model, and it worked. People have life’s dreams that correlate with their station in life. The Philippine salary scale for high demand jobs does not fairly match international scale, which is the comparative that high level people use.
I said that? Was the context about lobbying? Infrastructure? Or much ado about something?
It was your comment here Karl, on January 22, 2015:
I see, thanks!
off topic
I don’t want Trump to win, but Kamala was wrong to say that there are no US soldiers in Combat zones.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/11/trump-harris-debate-us-troops-combat-zones/75171915007/
Define “combat zone” and see if that is material to the different views. American-made combat zones are different than Ukraine or Israel. Where are the American-made combat zones, today? The last one was Afghanistan, and Biden took the troops out.
Reading my half daily dozen newspaper subscriptions was a habit ingrained into me by my grandfather I kept for nearly 40 years. Sadly, American journalism has long had an elitism problem that is more apparent the more the system is being trashed by the likes of Trump and his acolytes. Journalists have resorted to “sane washing” one side’s insane remarks, while equivocating the side that is at least trying to do good.
After the rabid treatment of Biden by the media, while ignoring Trump’s much more dangerous issues, I canceled my news subscriptions in anger, and what do you know? Biden was fine and not senile all along. I don’t enjoy the tabloidization and return to the “yellow journalism” by previously respected media orgs.
Yes, I cancelled my NYT and stopped reading the Washington Post. I also cancelled the LA Times, which broke my heart. Social media is a pool of anti-intellectual waste so I wade through it carefully and follow a few individual journalists like James Fallows, in the US. Here in the Philippines I have a little comfort bubble that is about 60% sense. I’m a confirmed elitist.
Canceled all of the above, as well as Chicago Tribune and Orange County Register (my local paper). The episode was just too rage inducing for me, especially after journalists blatantly and smugly celebrated while claiming they don’t want Trump. They want Trump.
On the flip side I subscribed to the Philadelphia Inquirer, where Will Bunch seems to lead the only sane newspaper left in America. The lost of local newsrooms contributed to this situation.
I carefully curate independent reporters and open source intelligence now. More work for me, but better for my blood pressure. It’s too cheap and too easy for Russian/Chinese propaganda to work their tentacles into the media narrative in the age of social media.
Ah, thanks for the tip on the Philadelphia Inquirer.
Will Bunch was one of the few big name journalists willing to call out his colleagues, and got dog piled for it. Admirable, so I followed what he has to say.
FWIW
From the taxman.
The term “combat zone(s)” is a general term used on IRS.gov and includes all of the following hostile areas where military may serve: actual combat areas, direct combat support areas, and qualified hazardous duty areas.
Now for the touché part.
(Serbia/Montenegro)
Albania
Kosovo
The Adriatic Sea
The Ionian Sea—north of the 39th parallel
Afghanistan – beginning September 19, 2001
Direct Support Areas
Personnel serving in support of military operations in Afghanistan in the following locations also qualify for the combat zone tax exclusion:
Jordan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan (as of Sep. 19, 2001)
Djibouti (as of July 1, 2002)
Yemen (as of April 10, 2022)
Somalia and Syria (as of Jan. 1, 2004)
Lebanon (from Feb. 12, 2015)
Serving in direct support of military operations on the Arabian Peninsula in the following locations:
Jordan (as of March 2, 2003)
Lebanon (from Feb. 12, 2015 through Feb. 11, 2020
Turkey east of longitude 33.51E (from Sep. 19, 2016)
All factual, Karl. The DoD, IRS, and IIRC even State Dept indeed use this language internally. For US service members, if they serve in these areas they are usually “combat coded.” However I’ll volunteer that Joe meant that there should be a distinction between bureaucratic-speak and the common understanding of average citizens. I don’t think most Americans would consider these areas as combat zones. Average Americans understand that Afghanistan is a combat zone, though in the last near decade US soldiers stationed there hardly did any fighting at all besides USSOCOM. That’s why the Trump camp is desperately grasping straws to do random attacks, also commonly called “throwing spaghetti at the wall.”
Ketchup, ketchup!
I just ate spaghetti
With out grasping at straws no scare crows can be made and your corn field will be at risk.
Yeah, I wonder how you stay away from MAGA arguments IRL.
Could it be coincidence, or two minds thinking alike? I had Jollibee today. Chickenjoy with a side of spaghetti 😅
Here in the US we have been trying to reason with MAGA for a decade. They can’t be reasoned with since their beliefs border on the religious, which Biden sadly figured out too late. Harris has the benefits of lessons learned, and is just ignoring them and taking the message directly to the people. That and mocking their weird positions, which despite what a few pearl clutchers here say, is remarkably effective.
Hi kainuman, Kampai to that with Spaghetti as pulutan.
I’ll make pinakupsan this weekend since I’m craving a Cebuano dish. Have you had pinakupsan, Karl? It’s one of the best pulutan to drink with Red Horse for an all-night drinking session for the regular tomadors. Fry some kangkong in the leftover linuwak, and it’s drinking heaven!
Maybe. Been to Cebu only twice when I visited My aunt, uncle and cousins I just eat what they serve, no questions asked hehe. Same in Davao where that might possibly be a thing. Had inhuman with my cousins so changes are that I have
It’s very hard to out-drink Visayans. Sometimes I think their blood has been replaced by alcohol. But it’s also very fun. I have many good memories, hehe.
Fond memories I am sure.
Cataloguing the timelines of Afghan withdrawal.
https://www.cfr.org/timeline/us-war-afghanistan
Link for Combat Zone.
https://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/special-pay/combat-zone-tax-exclusions.html
off topic again
Joey, did you say librarian?
We have a librarian here, at your service.
Joe said I read everything, well I speed read yes, but most often I go back to find all the books that I lost through time online and got disappointed that archive.org lost its battle with the publishers.
@Joey, regulars here have different responsibilities. Karl is Chief Librarian and Chief Tanod. He clubs LCX now and then, but LCX wears a helmet. Irineo is our Chief Historian, as I recollect. Karl might know. I’m working on your designation. i7sharp I think is our Chief Bible official or somesuch.
Chief of multi disciplines?
Karl, Joe, I volunteer to be the “kainuman.”
Drinking partner? That works as we are a bit like a cigar club, smoking and sipping our brandy and sharing our wisdom. But I think I’m going to find something else that describes and applies your awesome verbose intellectual might to our work here. No hurry.
Joe, just to clarify was the dog house for Ellen Go Adarna pics or DHS/CBP graphs? thanks. and ps. i7sharp was our Chief AI Questioner. We never entertained his Bible KJV stuff cuz I think we all knew we might be encouraging something worst.
The pics and the commentary “OH, man…. thanks for the visual , Joey. i’ve never had anyone drop their towels in front of me. so this is kinda one of my fantasies” But I have not gone to the trouble, being involved in writing another article seeking to influence the building of a powerful Philippines.
Thanks for the info on i7sharp. I remember now.
The blog is not instagram.
Yes, kainuman as in drinking buddy. During my travels (not just in the Philippines), I’ve found the best way to listen to stories is to sit around drinking beer and having parties. That way I’m able to understand personal stories and start piecing things together to find common threads.
Thanks for the kind words again. I’m just a simple observer of life.
I do enjoy a brandy though. Cognac specifically.
All we need is a virtual fireplace and nippy weather, ha!
Hard to find that in the Philippines. After a bath, I’m sweating again. Camping along the beach works though… morning swim with a fishing spear to catch my breakfast, then lazy nights feeding driftwood into the fire while having a couple strings of pork belly stuck on bamboo spits dripping pork fat onto the coals.
Heaven on earth, for sure.
For others there is no such thing as a coincidence, for I7sharp everything is a coincidence.
I miss his presence here more than Micha’s. i7sharp is like spice in a dish, giving it a bit of flavor, some tang. Micha puts turpentine on the salad.
I checked the spam folders but not there either.
I was about to release some comments but decided against it and it was more than a few days for some so I left them. Besides LCX just retypes.